Joey Barton

There's also the hermaphrodites among us who need thinking about too. I am of the opinion that Caster Semenya was badly treated by World Athletics. She, and she is a she, has been discriminated against IMO.

Is the only fair way forward to simply have open football, athletics etc where it's simply your ability at that sport that counts and not your gender, be that "natural" or self identified? IMO, it's not as women would almost never make National, Continental, World or Olympic tournaments.

What's the answer? I honestly don't know. I don't think self identified women should partake in women's sport events as they will have a historical advantage in most sports if they've gone through male puberty. On the other hand they'd be disadvantaged in rhythmic gymnastics or synchronised swimming. Separate categories for the self identified isn't the answer as there would likely be little to no interest and overall quality would not be there. It's a difficult and tricky issue and not one I have the answer to. It might be me but I see allowing self identified trans women to compete against naturally born women is discriminatory to a natural born female athlete.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

As far as I know some of the more illustrious male football commentators - Wolstenholme, Coleman, Davies, Motson etc - had no claim to have been decent footballers but were, rightly or wrongly, held in high esteem as commentators/pundits.
My daughter has a ST at PP. She may never have put in a great defensive header or been the victim of a ligament busting tackle...but she can talk as knowledgeably as anyone on here about Derby’s promotion prospects.
One thing that irritates me slightly is the pretence that women’s football is, or will ever be, on the same level as the men’s game. It isn’t and never will be imo, and that goes for cricket, rugby, athletics, tennis, golf, swimming etc too. Doesn’t mean it’s not worth watching or that women can’t display expertise, which is at least the equal of Joey Barton’s, when discussing the men’s game.

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Enlightening opinion from you there rA, which I think you've shared a bit before. Not sure Barton's outbursts went as far as invalidating womens' sports per se, and if so as an advocate for womens' sport I'd be 100% opposed, albeit anyone who argues for pay parity at the elite level needs a lesson in the way pro sport is funded (funds itself)

His point though was (mainly) about commentators, and knowing that you don't approve of quotas (your words, the less benevolent would call it 'box ticking') you may agree that there are some commentators in situ for reasons other than ability so would have some sympathy with his opinion, even if not his delivery.

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Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone

Whilst the rules of each sport are essentially the same for women as for men, the physical differences between the genders means that performance, by and large, can never be the same. Hence for the spectator the product on sale will never be the same.

Personally I find women's tennis a better watch - more finesse and less power. I actually enjoy women's golf for similar reasons. Cricket - no, they bring boundaries in so far; football, rugby and the more physical sports - no thanks.

However we are only at the tip of the problem and the non binary / self identification of genders will shortly make a farce of "traditional men's/women's" sport. It's already started in athletics and will only get more disruptive.

The day when Brodie Retallick (all 6ft 8 and 20 stone of him) decides he is a woman and wants to play for the Black Ferns can't be far away (example only: other rugby players are available).

Unsure how this dynamic will play out, but sure there are no good answers

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Likewise GP, I find some female sports (athletics, equestrian, netball) great to watch, as much as males, but in all such sports (I will explain netball in tedious detail to anyone who questions it) males will dominate simply due to physical strength if nothing else. That's why I'm totally opposed to gender self-identification in sport, it will kill female sports affected by it.

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

Likewise GP, I find some female sports (athletics, equestrian, netball) great to watch, as much as males, but in all such sports (I will explain netball in tedious detail to anyone who questions it) males will dominate simply due to physical strength if nothing else. That's why I'm totally opposed to gender self-identification in sport, it will kill female sports affected by it.

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It's at times like this that I miss a "like" button on this forum.

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Originally Posted by MadAmster

It's at times like this that I miss a "like" button on this forum.

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Me too...agreeing completely with AF’s post (#13) and the vast majority of GP’s too. Just common sense imo...there’s not enough of it about.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Me too...agreeing completely with AF’s post (#13) and the vast majority of GP’s too. Just common sense imo...there’s not enough of it about.

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Certainly far less common than it used to be

Hang on, that's 4 natural antagonists all agreeing on a topic! This will never do, where's Swale to tell us we are all spouting ****e,?

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Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone

Hang on, that's 4 natural antagonists all agreeing on a topic! This will never do, where's Swale to tell us we are all spouting ****e,?

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Natural antagonists? I’m rarely, if ever, at odds with MA, haven’t had a fall out with AF for eons, and even agree with you when you have your sensible head on...so stop ‘spouting ****e’! ;) ;) ;)

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Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone

Hang on, that's 4 natural antagonists all agreeing on a topic! This will never do, where's Swale to tell us we are all spouting ****e,?

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The only counter argument from me would be rA's assertion that Joey Barton was a damn good footballer, a thug and a poor mans Roy Kean but damn good, nope you've been smoking something there rA!

Otherwise don't disagree with any of the comments - well i might have a wee dig at Af for being snarky about so called quotas - if by that he means the media generally ensuring that all those whose appear in whatever guise aren't male, pale and stale, then don't see what the issue is? It can be argued that some of a different gender, race etc. may have got there ahead of more qualified or better white males, but seeing as as has already been noted, some of those white males in the past weren't that good anyway, the reverse has equally applied.

I do enjoy women's tennis, but think that now they have equal prize money, then they should play 5 sets as per the men, other than that no quibbles with what's been said.

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Originally Posted by swaledale

The only counter argument from me would be rA's assertion that Joey Barton was a damn good footballer, a thug and a poor mans Roy Kean but damn good, nope you've been smoking something there rA!

Otherwise don't disagree with any of the comments - well i might have a wee dig at Af for being snarky about so called quotas - if by that he means the media generally ensuring that all those whose appear in whatever guise aren't male, pale and stale, then don't see what the issue is? It can be argued that some of a different gender, race etc. may have got there ahead of more qualified or better white males, but seeing as as has already been noted, some of those white males in the past weren't that good anyway, the reverse has equally applied.

I do enjoy women's tennis, but think that now they have equal prize money, then they should play 5 sets as per the men, other than that no quibbles with what's been said.

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Don’t get me wrong, Swale. I don’t like him any more than you do and agree that Barton is a total tool, a nasty piece of work and yes...a ‘thug’.
But sometimes we have to accept that unpleasant people we dislike have talent and if I’ve been smoking something to reach my conclusion about Barton’s footballing ability alone it seems to have been something shared by the likes of Kevin Keegan, Sam Allardyce, Stuart Pearce, Neil Warnock, Steve McClaren and Harry Redknapp who possibly know more than you or I about football.