o/t Southport mursers

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Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds

Very good post MA. I suppose it has tempered me a bit. I am still in the IF brigade, because they denied it was a terror act and still do.
It smacks of being scared of offending a certain religion. It isn't just here, it happens in Europe as well.
The Germans did everything they could to cover up/ deny the awful crimes in Cologne that new years eve. Even down to trying to get those women to not press charges and drop their claims. Islam and radical Islam are not far apart, and to hide crimes committed by it is just plain wrong.

So, back to the riots. They were ill informed as to the culprits origins. Ironically coming from Pakistan and channel3now.
Yet now it seems, that the rioters weren't that far wrong in their anger, that they have enough of all the crimes being committed in the name of Islam. Lets be honest here, they are vile and far to frequent in their ferocity and nastyness.

So I'll say again, what is Islamophobia?

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A quick online search came up with the following...

What is the concept of Islamophobia?

Working definition of Islamophobia

Islamophobia is a fear, prejudice and hatred of Muslims that leads to provocation, hostility, and intolerance by means of threatening, harassment, abuse, incitement, and intimidation of Muslims and non-Muslims, both in the online and offline world.

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Islamophobia is a fear, prejudice and hatred of Islam that leads to provocation, hostility, and intolerance by means of threatening, harassment, abuse, incitement, and intimidation of Muslims by non-Muslims and of non-Muslims by Muslims, both in the online and offline world.

To me, that definition should read "Islamophobia is a fear, prejudice and hatred of Islam that leads to provocation, hostility, and intolerance by means of threatening, harassment, abuse, incitement, and intimidation of Muslims by non-Muslims and of non-Muslims by Muslims, both in the online and offline world."

It should, IMO, also incorporate words to the effect that those referred to in the "by" are people on the extremes. I know, and have taught, Muslims who are as horrified by terrorists killing and maiming in the name of Islam as you or I.

TTR, thanks for the post. Much appreciated. If only more people would understand the WHY before going overboard on the WHAT. I don't think anybody likes having things kept quiet, even in the short term, but when that quiet is done deliberately to maybe prevent eventual co-conspirators, if there are any, bunking off to get away with it, then I fully understand why the police might not release all their info up front. It's sensible. It protects people and prevents retaliatory violence. Personally, I could never condone a mob trashing "Abdul's corner shop" because someone he doesn't know and has never met has done something utterly atrocious.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Thank you for that, AF. I was in two minds whether to pm you about this post or just ignore it.

A forum is a place where views are exchanged and opinions contested, sometimes quite fiercely. The usual topics on here are football or politics and sometimes things can get quite feisty…something for which I am as much to ‘blame’ as anyone.

There is however, imo, a line which should not be crossed. The Southport incident and the murder of three innocent young girls was as tragic, upsetting and depraved an event as any I can ever remember. As regards the perpetrator…I am inclined to believe, from what little we know at the moment, that this is as much a case of an 18 year old with a serious mental health issues as anything else and should, as you suggest, be left well alone until all the appropriate investigation has taken place.

Either way I don’t believe it’s a matter that anyone should be seeking to make political capital out of. Most of us will recognise that it’s still too raw and painful for all concerned and should be treated accordingly and placed ‘out of bounds’ in terms of future short term forum discussion.

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I'm not taking any further action yet because the thread seems to have prompted a discussion rather than a slanging match and politicising of a horrendous crime on this forum isn't new (Jo Cox for example). I'll see how things develop

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Originally Posted by MadAmster

A quick online search came up with the following...

What is the concept of Islamophobia?

Working definition of Islamophobia

Islamophobia is a fear, prejudice and hatred of Muslims that leads to provocation, hostility, and intolerance by means of threatening, harassment, abuse, incitement, and intimidation of Muslims and non-Muslims, both in the online and offline world.

..........................

Islamophobia is a fear, prejudice and hatred of Islam that leads to provocation, hostility, and intolerance by means of threatening, harassment, abuse, incitement, and intimidation of Muslims by non-Muslims and of non-Muslims by Muslims, both in the online and offline world.

To me, that definition should read "Islamophobia is a fear, prejudice and hatred of Islam that leads to provocation, hostility, and intolerance by means of threatening, harassment, abuse, incitement, and intimidation of Muslims by non-Muslims and of non-Muslims by Muslims, both in the online and offline world."

It should, IMO, also incorporate words to the effect that those referred to in the "by" are people on the extremes. I know, and have taught, Muslims who are as horrified by terrorists killing and maiming in the name of Islam as you or I.

TTR, thanks for the post. Much appreciated. If only more people would understand the WHY before going overboard on the WHAT. I don't think anybody likes having things kept quiet, even in the short term, but when that quiet is done deliberately to maybe prevent eventual co-conspirators, if there are any, bunking off to get away with it, then I fully understand why the police might not release all their info up front. It's sensible. It protects people and prevents retaliatory violence. Personally, I could never condone a mob trashing "Abdul's corner shop" because someone he doesn't know and has never met has done something utterly atrocious.

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You're welcome.

My question of Islamophobia is more complicated than that.

Islamophobia is a fear, prejudice and hatred of Muslims that leads to provocation, hostility, and intolerance by means of threatening, harassment, abuse, incitement, and intimidation of Muslims and non-Muslims, both in the online and offline world.
This applies under the race act of any ethnicity.

1. Islam is a religion, not a race. Therefore is not beyond criticism in a free speach society. It seems that certain parts of the political circle don't like that and many Muslims take great offence when their religion is criticised/ mocked/ or charcterised.
2. a phobia is an irrational fear, I think there is more than enough evidence for folks to be extremely worried about Islam in its many guises. It certainly isn't an irrational fear.

So , Cooper opened her mouth on this and needs to tread very carefully, as to what she thinks Islamophobia is.
Yes I concur, persecution and hostility are not allowed or legal. But neither is throwing a tantrum over say a cartoon of the prophet. In the West, all religions are exempt from blasphemy protection. That is where I see this going.

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

I'm not taking any further action yet because the thread seems to have prompted a discussion rather than a slanging match and politicising of a horrendous crime on this forum isn't new (Jo Cox for example). I'll see how things develop

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Fair enough, I see where you’re coming from…although comparison with Jo Cox seems tenuous in so much as her murder was politically motivated rather than the actions of a (possibly) mentally unstable ****ager towards three complete innocents.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Fair enough, I see where you’re coming from…although comparison with Jo Cox seems tenuous in so much as her murder was politically motivated rather than the actions of a (possibly) mentally unstable ****ager towards three complete innocents.

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RA a mentally unstable ****ager, who decided that Jihadist training/ideology was for him, as was the production of a toxic poison, with god knows what intentions were. Think about his chosen targets as well

Ricin an assassins lethal weapon of choice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...nvolving_ricin

can we say we're done on this one until there are new revelations?

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

can we say we're done on this one until there are new revelations?

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Probably so. Lots of unanswered questions that you aren't going to find out, until a trial or enquiry decides.

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Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds

Probably so. Lots of unanswered questions that you aren't going to find out, until a trial or enquiry decides.

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Which is exactly my/the point…despite your attempts to stir everything up again.

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Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds

Probably so. Lots of unanswered questions that you aren't going to find out, until a trial or enquiry decides.

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And even then, probably wont

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Which is exactly my/the point…despite your attempts to stir everything up again.

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what are you on about, again!!!!

The official story was, this was a misguided welsh ****. Onviously not, despite all the attempts of this government to hush it up, and scream at everyone "far right" who questioned it.

In fact the irony is, Starmers rants at far right extremists rioting, probably put pressue on and influenced judges and trials .
The very thing, he claims he wants to stop