O/T:- Who needs Parliament?

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Originally Posted by ncfcog

And now he's offering his support to Gina Millers campaign . . . unbelievable!

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Apparently Tom Watson has now become involved . Does that mean we can expect some accusations from Carl Beech ?

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Originally Posted by Notsohumblepie

In 1997, John Major came under criticism after he called for the prorogation of parliament, which conveniently buried a report about to be published on the ‘cash for questions’ scandal.
I don't seem to recall the Professional Protest Movement taking to the streets then . It was fine for him to prorogue parliament back then, but it’s not fine for Boris Johnson to do so now!
Will his much vaunted, offered " professional advice" to the Court include that ?

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I can only assume that Mapperly is too young to remember this! Or conveniently forgotten.

Major was also the one who signed us up to Maastricht.
No referendum, no it's or buts. NOTHING.

This EU fanatic should have faded into obscurity years ago, he has no shame.
Skin thicker than a rhino.
He was sat next to May at the cricket the other week, big pals - who'd have thought it?
His only achievement was denying Gordon Brown the title of worst PM in history.
Just.

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Originally Posted by Mapperleypie

He's not just shutting it down for an extra 4 days. There is a huge difference between a recess and a prorogation. During a recess (which is normal for conference season) all normal functions of government continue, including select committees and the house of lords etc - all the elements that hold a government to account.

This is different - this is a shut down of all departments, which for this length of time given there are no elections or holidays is being done purely to remove the government of parliamentary scrutiny.

Whichever way you dress this up it is dangerous, reckless and flies in the face of parliamentary sovereignty which we should all hold dear. It sets a potentially very unwelcome precedent.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...tion-explained

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Great factcheck Mapperley, thanks for the link.

So in summary (correct me if I'm wrong)
Proroguing is a perfectly normal function of government.
Boris has done nothing wrong, legally, and this "slightly sneaky" method of calling it early has been used by politicians before (the article quotes Labour's Atlee and Tory's Major).....did anyone take to the streets on those occasions? no idea.
Government was due to go into recess 4 days after the proroguation date anyway, and I cannot see any mention of MPs wishing to use the recess to mount a challenge....AFAIK, the disparate group of "rebels" have no real idea of how to stop Boris, and have no coherent plan....even if they cannot use official Parliament time to come up with a plan, surely they can still talk to each other during the recess-proroguation?

So, two questions....does anyone seriously believe that after 700 days, an extra 4 days (plus a recess) would make a blind halfpennyworth of difference?
Secondly - The whole thing strikes me as fake outrage, and I suspect a majority of MPs (and the General Public) are relieved that, at last, we can see light at the end of the tunnel.
As I stated yesterday, despite the media's claim of money market wobbles, the market looks remarkably calm...here is this morning's £-Euro position https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?f...to=EUR&view=1M

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Originally Posted by tarquinbeech

Great factcheck Mapperley, thanks for the link.

So in summary (correct me if I'm wrong)
Proroguing is a perfectly normal function of government.
Boris has done nothing wrong, legally, and this "slightly sneaky" method of calling it early has been used by politicians before (the article quotes Labour's Atlee and Tory's Major).....did anyone take to the streets on those occasions? no idea.
Government was due to go into recess 4 days after the proroguation date anyway, and I cannot see any mention of MPs wishing to use the recess to mount a challenge....AFAIK, the disparate group of "rebels" have no real idea of how to stop Boris, and have no coherent plan....even if they cannot use official Parliament time to come up with a plan, surely they can still talk to each other during the recess-proroguation?

So, two questions....does anyone seriously believe that after 700 days, an extra 4 days (plus a recess) would make a blind halfpennyworth of difference?
Secondly - The whole thing strikes me as fake outrage, and I suspect a majority of MPs (and the General Public) are relieved that, at last, we can see light at the end of the tunnel.
As I stated yesterday, despite the media's claim of money market wobbles, the market looks remarkably calm...here is this morning's £-Euro position https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?f...to=EUR&view=1M

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4 days extra holiday is a democratic outrage, scheming to replace the government,colluding with EU leaders and nearly 3 years of trying to overturn a referendum vote is just fine. Hmmm
Remainers now get to feel how we have felt since the referendum.

More scaremongering from the press and tv news about a crisis that isnt happening, they're getting desperate

Wake me up on Nov 1st ...

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Originally Posted by dam617

I can only assume that Mapperly is too young to remember this! Or conveniently forgotten.

Major was also the one who signed us up to Maastricht.
No referendum, no it's or buts. NOTHING.

This EU fanatic should have faded into obscurity years ago, he has no shame.
Skin thicker than a rhino.
He was sat next to May at the cricket the other week, big pals - who'd have thought it?
His only achievement was denying Gordon Brown the title of worst PM in history.
Just.

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France voted for Maastricht by a smaller margin than we've just voted for Brexit.
Denmark voted against by even a smaller margin (50.7%) and then after gaining opt-outs voted for a year later.
Norway have had two referendums and voted against joining.
Greenland was in then voted out.
Switzerland, arguably right in the middle of Europe, have twice been given the opportunity to vote, and twice said "No"

The case for or against EU for many is a very finely balanced argument -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refere...stricht_Treaty

This "centre of democracy" should have been given a chance at Maastricht.

Even so all this wailing and gnashing of teeth is most un-British. Not surprising the way the country has gone the past 20 years.

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Originally Posted by bridpie78

4 days extra holiday is a democratic outrage, scheming to replace the government,colluding with EU leaders and nearly 3 years of trying to overturn a referendum vote is just fine. Hmmm

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It was a referendum, not a vote. Just for the sake of clarity that referendum result was not a binding vote at all. Just saying ;)

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Originally Posted by SwalePie

It was a referendum, not a vote. Just for the sake of clarity that referendum result was not a binding vote at all. Just saying ;)

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Correct, which is why every major party made a statement to say they would abide by the decision. Clever these politicians.

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Originally Posted by SwalePie

It was a referendum, not a vote. Just for the sake of clarity that referendum result was not a binding vote at all. Just saying ;)

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We voted in a referendum im typing on a phone so im not using all of my words, you pick holes in my wording but not the facts.
And i think we're past the point where it matters what remainers are ' just saying'

I see all the fick Brexit fans have been consulting their dodgy websites and come up with some bollox about some other Tory PM did this so it’s alright now and it’s only for 4 days so what doesn’t make any difference. Pathetic. If it doesn’t make any difference why the f00k is he doing it?

Can’t make it on to the streets tomorrow but I hope everyone who can causes as much havoc as possible. The scum who are currently running this country won’t understand the language of peaceful demonstration.

I have not seen these projections raised here, but one of the reasons for getting out of the EU.....is that the countries making up the "bloc" are in terminal decline, compared with the growing economies of the World, namely Asian countries, plus Russia, Mexico and Brazil.

PwC produce regular projections of each country's GDP "league position", both current and projected, and the decline of Germany, France, Spain and most notably Italy (who virtually fall off the economic ladder) is startling.
The UK, post-Brexit, position is relatively healthy compared to the other larger EU members (though PwC anticipate short-term issues then a decent recovery once the "shackles" are removed)

I will let you all play around with the interactive model below, but the summary points are
Germany - Falls from 5th in 2016, to 7th in 2030 and 9th in 2050
France - Falls from 10th to 11th to 12th
Italy - Plunges from 12th to 15th then 21st!!
Spain - Likewise plunges from 16th to 17th then 26th

The UK (post-Brexit) is quite bullish at 9th to 10th and holding 10th until 2050 ie no further decline, why? Because ALL THE WORLD GDP growth, relative to each other, is coming from emerging nations like China, India, Indonesia, Brazil, Russia, Mexico and Turkey ie countries OUTSIDE OF THE EU.

The 7 emerging nations are set to be DOUBLE the size of the current G7 countries USA, UK, France, Italy, Germany, Japan and Canada.

Whilst I appreciate that these are only projections, the writing has clearly been on the wall since 2016.......as an example, Mexico, as an E7 nation, (in GDP PPP terms) are projected to overtake France in 2025, Italy are already below Mexico and Mexico overtake Germany in 2042 and the UK in 2030, 11 years from now!!

For those that eschew the PPP model, you can change the stats to GDP in actual terms by altering buttons on the graph ie Mexico catch the UK in 2048? Germany in 2055? France in 2043 and Italy in 2031.

Basically, it's my long-winded way of saying the West is in serial decline, emerging economies are where the real growth is and the UK, post-Brexit, are in a superb position to benefit (and the model predicts exactly that)