O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

As you might guess, I don't agree

The vast majority of the electorate DID have sufficient knowledge to offer an informed opinion, that knowledge was that the issues and potential outcomes hadn't been made clear and based on that their opinion SHOULD have been 'The issues and outcomes aren't clear enough, therefore I will vote for the status quo'.

HOWEVER, such rationality never came into it. The population were given a vote and did with it what they wished

some of your descriptions of those who voted (in both directions) may be accurate (certainly more so than Lord Swale's bile) but you clearly didn't/don't get out enough to realise there was (and still is) a genuine unrest with 'the way things are' amongst what is still the biggest demographic group in the country, who, not wanting to go on wrecking sprees such as we saw last year, see their 'moment' as being at the ballot box not, for instance, Bristol Harbour.

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Oh, I get out enough, AF. Probably just mix in different circles.
I’m still trying to reconcile your point of a few posts ago...when you described people coming to you to find out how to find out more, with the statement... ‘the vast majority of the population DID have sufficient knowledge’.
Clearly, if they were coming to you to ask how to find out more, they didn’t have sufficient knowledge and I doubt that the a large proportion of those who voted for Brexit would have been found within your peer group anyway.

As regards Bristol Harbour...if you really want to confuse two distinct political campaign groups...let’s not pretend that the post Referendum behaviour of certain victorious Brexiteers was acceptable either. It also had nothing whatsoever to do with the ballot box.

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Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone

You do have an interestingly short termist view of everything rA. We have not "surrendered governance of the country..." but we have for the time being got the "fools" as you describe them (whether I agree with the description is irrelevant here). A surrender of governance (or government?) is a way more serious issue which, if anything, we did back in 1973 without realising it as it wasnt on the agenda at the time.

Said group of fools have been in power since 2010, when Brexit was just a conceptual babe in arms and then very much a non political / cross political party question. The surrender is in fact down to incompetent domestic opposition failing to wrest power, or even put up a semi decent fight to regain power. You are just blaming Brexit for what you see as an unacceptable domestic political situation because it suits your agenda.

In fact brexit was always an issue splitting the major parties, before, during and after the referendum. Neither party seemed to want to become the party of brexit (or remain) - here I ignore the Libdems as an irrelevance - until the conservatives either (a) stood up to the plate to deliver the nations need, (b) acted whilst others dithered (c) risked alienating their own MPs / Membership / support by selecting a side to support and labour (a) were indecisive and concerned about loss of support whichever way they jumped (b) were never going to be pro brexit as the tories had grabbed that ground etc etc. We all know the arguments.

so no, we have not lost governance but we may have been subject to a short term opportunistic power grab: the Tories paying the game better than Labour who dithered

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No problem with that last sentence, GP. You’re absolutely right...the Brexiteer Tories have ‘played the game’ better than anyone all the way through. Maybe others thought it was more than just a ‘game’.

The ‘said group of fools’ have not been in power since 2010 however.
Yes...the Tories, or initially the Tories and the Lib/Dems, have been in power for the last eleven plus years...but what we have now bears no resemblance to what was elected in 2010 or, for that matter, what we had under Theresa May.
What we have now is the most ruthless right wing government since Thatcher who’s only area of competence has been in the ‘short term opportunistic power grab’ you describe.
It just saddens me that you should find anything admirable in that.

P.S. I can entirely see MA’s point regarding the possible political end game of a Federal Europe. The point is...those sentiments of his were uttered almost half a century ago. Surely those who wished for an economic union rather than the loss of national identity could have argued that case sensibly in the intervening period. It is also interesting that he, out of all of us, is the one who has chosen to build a life in Europe and, unless I’m mistaken, is possibly the most balanced contributor on here while still the third most outspoken critic of Brexit.

I'm not sure I have said I see anything admirable in it........... but we have not lost governance of ourselves as a result of Brexit. That's just you ploughing your agenda. Indecision and havering on the matter of Brexit facilitated the short term land grab, brexit didnt lead to a loss of governance, rather the opposite - it regained it. Just because the newly regained power fell into, in your view, the wrong hands, does not mean we haven't got control of ourselves:

rA : "Yes...the Tories, or initially the Tories and the Lib/Dems, have been in power for the last eleven plus years...but what we have now bears no resemblance to what was elected in 2010 or, for that matter, what we had under Theresa May."

So ultimately its all Nick Clegg's fault that it has ended where it has ended - his own opportunistic power grab backfired, his own career in poiitics ended and his party was destroyed. Don't blame one group of politicians for land grabs, whilst excusing others - its what politics is about at its heart. Thatcher, Blair both did the same, grabbing power at party level and heading their parties off in new directions whilst reviving their fortunes. After 7 or 8 years they fell into disrepute and fell victim to the electorate or their own party infighting. The same will happen with Johnson etal, who have ridden the populist crest of brexit and covid (despite what you may feel). just give it time.

Then Starmer, or whomsoever will make his land grab and the same old degenerate cycle will start all over again.

I don’t think I described a ‘loss’ of governance. Just agreed that it had fallen ‘into the hands of incompetent self serving fools’.
Hopefully you’re right and people will eventually see the ‘light’ as regards the current incumbents.
I recognise that, of those leaders you mention, they eventually ‘fell into disrepute’ and that Blair, again eventually, only had himself to blame...but I still maintain that I cannot remember a time when so much effort and money was spent into the development of aligning social and physical infrastructure as it was under TB from 1997 onwards.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

And you call me idealistic!
You’ve recognised that the vast majority of the electorate had insufficient knowledge to offer an informed opinion/vote but now claim that the ‘silent majority’ - aka in this case actual minority - ‘found their voice’.
You make it sound almost heroic, but as has been pointed out...that just isn’t true.
I won’t use the emotive and self defeating term ‘idiots’ but, substituting some combination of the words, naive, gullible, misguided, easily led and prejudiced, Swale is spot on...all that has happened is that we are more isolated than at any time in living memory and we have indeed surrendered governance of this country into ‘the hands of incompetent self serving fools’.

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Again RA missed off the history of it all.
1. We joined an economic community
2. We have had the ever expanding EU forced on us. Lisbon treaty was not asked of us.
3. The EU is slowly morphing into the USE and your "governance" as you call it. Will be run by unelected, immovable fools.
OUR FOOLS CAN BE DUMPED AT A BALLOT BOX.

QED

That's a bit over simplistic trick (shock, horror). we cant get rid of our civil servants any more than we could get rid of the commission when we were in the EU. The difference lies in the relationship between the elected houses and their support staff. In EU the tail (commision) wags the dog (european parliament) - in UK we, at least in theory, still have the dog wagging the tail.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

.....but I still maintain that I cannot remember a time when so much effort and money was spent into the development of aligning social and physical infrastructure as it was under TB from 1997 onwards.

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Which is no surprise as that was the only period ruled under a blue tinged socialist government in the last quarter of a century. A time where labour shifted almost as far right as the conservatives morphed into post Thatcher as they headed to the middle ground in the opposite direction.

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Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone

Which is no surprise as that was the only period ruled under a blue tinged socialist government in the last quarter of a century. A time where labour shifted almost as far right as the conservatives morphed into post Thatcher as they headed to the middle ground in the opposite direction.

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Nevertheless...it was the last, and possibly only, time I had any confidence in the leadership of this country, and having spent the
first twenty years of my career working under Thatcher, or even the more decent extension offered by Major, it was like the proverbial breath of fresh air for both schools and the health service.

A ‘blue tinged socialist government’ I can live with.

P.S. We seem to have cross threaded Covid and Brexit.

A comparatively appealing breath, rather like emerging into Swale's bog from the sewers probably. Even ****e smells good after raw sewage !