O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Have to differ, AF. Of course there’s an element of ‘looking after #1’ I appreciate that completely, but if we just subscribe to the ‘survival of the fittest’ mentality then forget donations to charity, forget helping those less fortunate than ourselves, forget altruism (philosophically flawed that one I accept) and forget looking after the sick and the old.
Wouldn’t fit into your Christian philosophy terribly well and I don’t imagine that’s really what you believe...anymore than you agree with Roger Waters’ (the writer’s) words, ‘I’m alright Jack, keep your hands off my stack.’

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RA, have a chill pill mucker.
I think the general gist here, is the more it hits the fan, the more the selfish attitude surfaces.
No one actually wants to throw away charity, but there needs to be a realism across the board as well.
The more the have nots demand, the more the strain increases.
Until the world wakes up with the numbers game, the more the non Christian attitude grows. You can't give away, what you don't have.
Human nature revolves around greed and bed deeds. You need to meet a Thai monk.
You'd love it. I mean that in a good way.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Have to differ, AF. Of course there’s an element of ‘looking after #1’ I appreciate that completely, but if we just subscribe to the ‘survival of the fittest’ mentality then forget donations to charity, forget helping those less fortunate than ourselves, forget altruism (philosophically flawed that one I accept) and forget looking after the sick and the old.
Wouldn’t fit into your Christian philosophy terribly well and I don’t imagine that’s really what you believe...anymore than you agree with Roger Waters’ (the writer’s) words, ‘I’m alright Jack, keep your hands off my stack.’

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IMO Its all a question of degree rA, and I'd put Looking After Number 1 as a point on the scale of survival of the fittest. Currently 'we' don't subscribe to genuine survival of the fittest because 'we' don't need to, unlike the Africans hacking compatriots to death at a flour drop recently (Euronews) - likewise 'we' are charitable/altruistic because it doesn't really'hurt' our lives to do so. 'We' are just too affluent to be put to the test as individuals. However, IMO nations are moving more quickly than individuals - great example, and I quote directly from the BBC news article

''Greece has completed a 40km (25-mile) fence and surveillance system on its border with Turkey amid concerns over a surge of migrants from Afghanistan.

"We cannot wait, passively, for the possible impact," Greece's Citizens' Protection Minister Michalis Chrisochoidis said on a visit to the region of Evros on Friday.

"Our borders will remain inviolable."

Thats the lovely Greece moving down the scale, 20 years ago the biggest problem immigrants into Greece had was that no-one took any notice of them

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

‘Goody good bull****’. WTF?

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I think you missed attempted PF related witticism there rA

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Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone

You appear to be suggesting that we need to alleviate global poverty and inequality in order to win the war on COVID - please correct me if I'm wrong. I understand that your objective is not merely to wrd off COVID, but is far more deep rooted, but... Anyway, good luck with that one. Idealistic thinking at best. Castles in the air at worst.

COVID may be a global problem, but this god forsaken planet has many more problems to face in the future which align with extinction. The climate and environmental issues would I fear be made far worse by resolving these poverty and inequality issues - levelling everyone up will simply lead to more extremes of energy consumption and raping of he world's limited resources.

The reality of it is that there are simply way too many people for the planet to sustain as currently set up. Levelling people up will simply break the camel's back sooner - even if it could be achieved, which is extremely remote. There is an argument that COVID would have done us all (humanity) a long term favour if it had wiped out a billion or two people (unless of course you happened to be one of them). But setting aside personal issues, the planet needs cleansing: medical science has quite possibly not done us any favours.

I see the future of the planet very differently to you I fear: I don't see any of the levelling up, but rather resource wars and deterioration in the environment until the human race is exterminated. I just hope that what of the wrecked planet is left has the capability to slowly recover and support whatever has survived.

On which cheery note I will return to work

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A lot to agree with there.

There are too many people on earth to be able to keep them all happy.

We probably grow/breed enough food to give everybody what they NEED. Unfortunately, not enough to give everybody what they WANT. Most definitely a lot of it is produced 100s of miles away from where it's NEEDED and getting it there is a logistics nightmare, or would be if the rest of us were willing to send what we don't need to the poorly accessible places that do need it before it rots.

We need to slow down population growth. Actually we need to change it to population decline. The problem with that is that it would deny "the 1%" of their greedy demand for constant growth in the "economy" that keeps them rich and increases the value of their shares and the level of dividend they receive. The greedy aren't interested in sustainable futures as they are only interested in themselves being at the top of the tree and, with them, their children. They seem to miss that doing so will see their families embroiled in vicious conflicts not too far down the road.

The daftest thing is that when somebody floats an idea that would either keep the population levels at their current ones and maybe even reduce them a little, they get called out as inciting murder/genocide by the "alternative thinkers".

Reduce child mortality through vaccinations said Gates. He went on to explain that reduced child mortality tends to morph into parents having less children as they don't need to have so many to guarantee that there will be enough of their kids left to look after the parents in their old age. Perfectly reasonable and accurate thing to say. What happens? The "alternates" accuse him of mass murder!

I'm actually shocked that the "alternates" haven't gone berserk online over the Malaria vaccine announced last week. Kids will get 4 doses and it is expected that it will save around half of the annual 400,000 deaths malaria causes. The silence from those quarters is deafening.

Another thing the "alternates" forget is that the Covid vaccine isn't 100% efficient in stopping you getting infected. It does protect most against infection and greatly reduces the chance of needing hospital/ICU treatment. I heard the Dutch head of ICU care yesterday say that a non-vaccinated person has 33 times more chance of needing ICU treatment than a vaccinated person once infected. Add in the fact that you are less likely to get infected in the first place following inoculation and you see the huge benefits of Covid vaccination. They also cite the side effects as a major issue...... I've said it before, there isn't a medicine or vaccine without side effects. Just read the leaflet inside any medicine package. The list is long but the vast majority of people don't have any issues.

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

IMO Its all a question of degree rA, and I'd put Looking After Number 1 as a point on the scale of survival of the fittest. Currently 'we' don't subscribe to genuine survival of the fittest because 'we' don't need to, unlike the Africans hacking compatriots to death at a flour drop recently (Euronews) - likewise 'we' are charitable/altruistic because it doesn't really'hurt' our lives to do so. 'We' are just too affluent to be put to the test as individuals. However, IMO nations are moving more quickly than individuals - great example, and I quote directly from the BBC news article

''Greece has completed a 40km (25-mile) fence and surveillance system on its border with Turkey amid concerns over a surge of migrants from Afghanistan.

"We cannot wait, passively, for the possible impact," Greece's Citizens' Protection Minister Michalis Chrisochoidis said on a visit to the region of Evros on Friday.

"Our borders will remain inviolable."

Thats the lovely Greece moving down the scale, 20 years ago the biggest problem immigrants into Greece had was that no-one took any notice of them

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Sorry Andy...my point was specifically in response to MA’s observation about the situation in the Netherlands with Covid.
Your points about migrants, fences and border surveillance systems are all worthwhile I’m sure...but are nothing to do with the original issue.
MA describes a situation where Covid is growing within the the poorer, probably more overcrowded, areas in one of Europe’s most densely populated countries.
To me it illustrates the need to ensure everyone is vaccinated because ‘no one is safe until everyone is safe’.
If the growing situation in Holland - and possibly here - is replicated around the World we will soon be back to square one.
Covid hasn’t gone away and, as a personal example, in the last five weeks five (two adults and three children) of my immediate family have all been diagnosed with Covid.
From both a moral and a self preservation point of view we have to ensure that as many as possible of the World’s poor are properly vaccinated asap imo. That was my one and only point but, as ever, two people seek to misconstrue that simple suggestion to suit their own agendas.

As regards ‘Dastardly and Muttley’...I really can’t be bothered anymore. I have so many better things to do than respond to their dialogue destroying infantile malice. I can do banter and barbed comments with the best of them but that isn’t what I joined this forum for so I’ll just ignore the pair of them until things change.

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Originally Posted by MadAmster

A lot to agree with there.

There are too many people on earth to be able to keep them all happy.

We probably grow/breed enough food to give everybody what they NEED. Unfortunately, not enough to give everybody what they WANT. Most definitely a lot of it is produced 100s of miles away from where it's NEEDED and getting it there is a logistics nightmare, or would be if the rest of us were willing to send what we don't need to the poorly accessible places that do need it before it rots.

We need to slow down population growth. Actually we need to change it to population decline. The problem with that is that it would deny "the 1%" of their greedy demand for constant growth in the "economy" that keeps them rich and increases the value of their shares and the level of dividend they receive. The greedy aren't interested in sustainable futures as they are only interested in themselves being at the top of the tree and, with them, their children. They seem to miss that doing so will see their families embroiled in vicious conflicts not too far down the road.

The daftest thing is that when somebody floats an idea that would either keep the population levels at their current ones and maybe even reduce them a little, they get called out as inciting murder/genocide by the "alternative thinkers".

Reduce child mortality through vaccinations said Gates. He went on to explain that reduced child mortality tends to morph into parents having less children as they don't need to have so many to guarantee that there will be enough of their kids left to look after the parents in their old age. Perfectly reasonable and accurate thing to say. What happens? The "alternates" accuse him of mass murder!

I'm actually shocked that the "alternates" haven't gone berserk online over the Malaria vaccine announced last week. Kids will get 4 doses and it is expected that it will save around half of the annual 400,000 deaths malaria causes. The silence from those quarters is deafening.

Another thing the "alternates" forget is that the Covid vaccine isn't 100% efficient in stopping you getting infected. It does protect most against infection and greatly reduces the chance of needing hospital/ICU treatment. I heard the Dutch head of ICU care yesterday say that a non-vaccinated person has 33 times more chance of needing ICU treatment than a vaccinated person once infected. Add in the fact that you are less likely to get infected in the first place following inoculation and you see the huge benefits of Covid vaccination. They also cite the side effects as a major issue...... I've said it before, there isn't a medicine or vaccine without side effects. Just read the leaflet inside any medicine package. The list is long but the vast majority of people don't have any issues.

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Population growth really is a huge issue that defines mankind's future. I heard on the radio this morning that British birthrates continue to fall and are below 2, which mirrors experiences seen in many developed countries across the world. At the same time global population spirals upwards with births being double deaths. Another interesting observation was that 30% of UK births were to mothers not born in the UK: my flabber was really ghasted at that statistic, not that it really matters what the child's provenance is.

So populations in the "wealth creating" economies continues to fall, that in the economies needing growth continues to soar. So where is that economic growth going to come from? Multinationals can and do arbitrage this differential, but only for so long as it is to their financial advantage. As soon as they can make more money elsewhere, they move on, leaving the previous partner back in the ****, Thus the low population high wealth countries continue to advance, and the high population low wealth countries subside: and revert to high birthrates to secure the parent generations future.

This leaves the have nots dependent on the charity of the haves, and this is never going to be sufficient to support an ever growing cohort of have nots.

Mother nature had a way of dealing with this - disease and warfare, as Thomas Malthus recognised over 200 years ago. But "we" knew better and have eliminated the population moderation effects of these factors. Even lemmings understand the scenario better than we do

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

From both a moral and a self preservation point of view we have to ensure that as many as possible of the World’s poor are properly vaccinated asap imo. .

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Morally - agree

Self preservation, don’t agree, inasmuch as I believe the nation by nation approach has saved calamity so far. Imagine if vaccination had been truly equitable worldwide - assuming we did an oldest first rollout, we might just about be finishing the over 70s now, maybe not even that. So now think of your family members, most of which I’m guessing wouldn’t be vaccinated on the above basis. Now think what their outcomes might have been.

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

Morally - agree

Self preservation, don’t agree, inasmuch as I believe the nation by nation approach has saved calamity so far. Imagine if vaccination had been truly equitable worldwide - assuming we did an oldest first rollout, we might just about be finishing the over 70s now, maybe not even that. So now think of your family members, most of which I’m guessing wouldn’t be vaccinated on the above basis. Now think what their outcomes might have been.

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Family members...both adults thankfully, but worryingly, fully vaccinated. They are just two of a number of people I know or know of who have contracted Covid despite being fully vaccinated.

I do take your point about the roll out...but what I am saying is that NOW is the time to concentrate extra effort on vaccinating those who, for what ever reason - and poverty, isolation and ignorance will be major factors - have fallen through the net.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Family members...both adults thankfully, but worryingly, fully vaccinated. They are just two of a number of people I know or know of who have contracted Covid despite being fully vaccinated.

I do take your point about the roll out...but what I am saying is that NOW is the time to concentrate extra effort on vaccinating those who, for what ever reason - and poverty, isolation and ignorance will be major factors - have fallen through the net.

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Not sure if you mean U.K. people or worldwide

Considering my avatar, can I be Muttley please?

Thanks Penelope anyway.