Ardley vs The Fish

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Originally Posted by Jampie

Yeah I meant Championship, sorry, classic mis-type there :)

And I disagree we've made no progress. Our points haul this season was higher than ever, would have been enough to get us to 2nd the season before.

Strategically we've gone from a players' retirement club to a place with players other clubs might actually want to buy. We accidentally did the same with our head coach. That's definitely progress.

And as I said, if you reliably make it into the playoffs, sooner or later you'll get promoted. Higher up is better, obviously, but Grimsby just got promoted on 77 points to our 82. Just as there's no way you can call it "stable" if we're battling relegation every year, it isn't "stable" or in any kind of equilibrium if we're battling for promotion every year at the top of the table. Which we are.

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I disagree with your “progress” on the pitch. Firstly, comparing the points haul does not show what you want, we had 2 less teams last season, Dover and Macclesfield. That’s 12 likely points, which if removed from this year we get….70 points, the same as last season. Only this time, we fall at the first fence. So no progress at all. Again we only played 37 games the season before that do again not comparable.

Secondly, how many players have we “sold” despite having this policy? None. That isn’t progress either.

We have stability, and I’m not against that. I don’t want boom and bust. I want gradual progress. I cannot see that without a change in on pitch philosophy. We need to be able to get possession up the pitch without having to always make 50 passes. That means having the players to facilitate this, not just hoofing it, but a balance when necessary and when teams pin us back.

I do take a positive from the comment made by the board on the flagstaff signing.
“His ability to attack spaces behind opposition defences creates chances from nothing…”

This is what we need, provided we use it, and provided he can finish. It won’t take much to make progress.

Continually making the same mistakes, as you suggest, in the belief that it will work one day may be the way the owners are happy to go. I don’t see the fans sticking with this, though, and it wouldn’t take very much to fail at some point. All in all I think next season is make or break, if fans see the same mistakes being made they are going to start voting with their feet.

Good post Don, agree with a lot of that. To me although the style is more pleasing to watch for I suspect the majority of fans, the results don't show progress rather parity. The last two seasons were in some ways mirror images of one another with the same positives and same negatives/issues.

I would take some issue regarding your second point. If we had sold a player in January (Say Wootton or Ruben) then it would've shown progress (financially) but no doubt the owners would have been labelled as being unambitious for selling a key player (for a large profit) at a key time of the season and hijacking our chances of promotion just to cash in . The fact we didn't sell any of the 3 attacking players who generated plenty of interest illustrated the owner's ambition (and possibly level of funding).

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Originally Posted by The_Don_ORiordan

I disagree with your “progress” on the pitch. Firstly, comparing the points haul does not show what you want, we had 2 less teams last season, Dover and Macclesfield. That’s 12 likely points, which if removed from this year we get….70 points, the same as last season. Only this time, we fall at the first fence. So no progress at all. Again we only played 37 games the season before that do again not comparable.

Secondly, how many players have we “sold” despite having this policy? None. That isn’t progress either.

We have stability, and I’m not against that. I don’t want boom and bust. I want gradual progress. I cannot see that without a change in on pitch philosophy. We need to be able to get possession up the pitch without having to always make 50 passes. That means having the players to facilitate this, not just hoofing it, but a balance when necessary and when teams pin us back.

I do take a positive from the comment made by the board on the flagstaff signing.
“His ability to attack spaces behind opposition defences creates chances from nothing…”

This is what we need, provided we use it, and provided he can finish. It won’t take much to make progress.

Continually making the same mistakes, as you suggest, in the belief that it will work one day may be the way the owners are happy to go. I don’t see the fans sticking with this, though, and it wouldn’t take very much to fail at some point. All in all I think next season is make or break, if fans see the same mistakes being made they are going to start voting with their feet.

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To be fair only 1 less team last season isn't it? So 6 points not the 12 to be deducted (and from everyone else around us) so we wouldn't have fallen at the first hurdle.

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Originally Posted by jackal2

The vast majority of the clubs that have won promotion automatically or through the play-offs from the National League in recent years have done so operating within what you would regard as normal budgets for the size of their club. I've highlighted in bold below the clubs that were known to have 'sugar daddy' backing and/or over-inflated spending relative to their income, but the rest just found the right formula within their regular means, sometimes after several attempts.

2007–08 Aldershot Town; Exeter City
2008–09 Burton Albion; Torquay United
2009–10 Stevenage Borough; Oxford United
2010–11 Crawley Town; AFC Wimbledon
2011–12 Fleetwood Town; York City
2012–13 Mansfield Town; Newport County
2013–14 Luton Town; Cambridge United
2014–15 Barnet; Bristol Rovers
2015–16 Cheltenham Town; Grimsby Town
2016–17 Lincoln City; Forest Green Rovers
2017–18 Macclesfield Town; Tranmere Rovers
2018–19 Leyton Orient; Salford City
2019–20 Barrow; Harrogate Town
2020–21 Sutton United; Hartlepool United
2021-22 Stockport County

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Well that's a comprehensive and interesting list of promoted teams.

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Originally Posted by caj85

To be fair only 1 less team last season isn't it? So 6 points not the 12 to be deducted (and from everyone else around us) so we wouldn't have fallen at the first hurdle.

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So we’re a whole 6 points better than last season, and still fell at the first hurdle. The poster didn’t compare it to the teams around points total, he compared it to two other seasons where we played less games and did better in the playoffs and called this season progress. Thats clutching at straws.

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Originally Posted by laddo

Good post Don, agree with a lot of that. To me although the style is more pleasing to watch for I suspect the majority of fans, the results don't show progress rather parity. The last two seasons were in some ways mirror images of one another with the same positives and same negatives/issues.

I would take some issue regarding your second point. If we had sold a player in January (Say Wootton or Ruben) then it would've shown progress (financially) but no doubt the owners would have been labelled as being unambitious for selling a key player (for a large profit) at a key time of the season and hijacking our chances of promotion just to cash in . The fact we didn't sell any of the 3 attacking players who generated plenty of interest illustrated the owner's ambition (and possibly level of funding).

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Ifs buts and maybes. Did we actually have any declared offers and turn them down? Or are we just talking rumours?

Any of what you say may be true or not. But the facts are that what I said is absolutely true.

The poster said we have made progress because we have players which will gain us money.

Only if someone is willing to pay it……..and as things stand despite KW, RR and CR being highly rated, no one has yet done this.

Great that KW has done well. The club must be really happy with his progress to another club for nothing.

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Originally Posted by The_Don_ORiordan

So we’re a whole 6 points better than last season, and still fell at the first hurdle. The poster didn’t compare it to the teams around points total, he compared it to two other seasons where we played less games and did better in the playoffs and called this season progress. Thats clutching at straws.

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So you don't call 6 points progress. I do. Let's er, agree to disagree on that one.

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Originally Posted by The_Don_ORiordan

Ifs buts and maybes. Did we actually have any declared offers and turn them down? Or are we just talking rumours?

Any of what you say may be true or not. But the facts are that what I said is absolutely true.

The poster said we have made progress because we have players which will gain us money.

Only if someone is willing to pay it……..and as things stand despite KW, RR and CR being highly rated, no one has yet done this.

Great that KW has done well. The club must be really happy with his progress to another club for nothing.

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I can answer those questions Don.

Yes we did have bids our Head Coach at the time (January) confirmed that the club had received multiple bids.

No we aren't "just talking rumours".

What I said was true according to Ian Burchnall.

It what you said was a absolutely true bar the "12 points" bit.

I agree all 3 were rightly highly rated last season but although we didn't cash in on any, we did receive bids according to the club. The owners resisted selling and cashing in at a key time of the season.

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Originally Posted by Jampie

So you don't call 6 points progress. I do. Let's er, agree to disagree on that one.

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LOL, no, and I now know not to take your posts seriously.

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Originally Posted by laddo

I can answer those questions Don.

Yes we did have bids our Head Coach at the time (January) confirmed that the club had received multiple bids.

No we aren't "just talking rumours".

What I said was true according to Ian Burchnall.

It what you said was a absolutely true bar the "12 points" bit.

I agree all 3 were rightly highly rated last season but although we didn't cash in on any, we did receive bids according to the club. The owners resisted selling and cashing in at a key time of the season.

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So progress on the pitch is that we didn’t make any money from any players including our best asset going for free, we finished in the same place with 6 points more and failed earlier in the play offs?

Right. More of that next season then. I’m in. I’m sure everyone including the board would be very happy with more progress like that.

Which bit of the first paragraph isn’t true there?