⚽ Match Thread vs. Salford City [EFL L2] 23.03.24

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Originally Posted by the_anticlough

I didn't imply they have a vendetta (misrepresentation!), I said very clearly and directly that there's a vendetta.
The mob mentality on this subject kicked in some time ago here and then a player become fair game for relentless negative posts. It's cowardly, running with the pack of course.

And thanks for trying to write my posts for me, but nah, I'll pass. I'm cool with the points I've made. I'm not, like you, telling others what they should or shouldn't write. I don't expect what I say to have any impact at all. I don't even think about that. But it's good to see many balanced and fair comments on the Cameron thread and sincesept59's post is where I'm at too.

As I've said he's a player with real, tangible achievements at Notts. One of the only players to lift any kind of silverware for us at Wembley in the last 100 years. His achievements don't mean anything? Are we such a 'what have you done for me lately?' fanbase now that actual achievements aren't worth anything? What's the point of trying in the first place then?
That doesn't mean anyone's 'above criticism' (more misrepresentation there) or a 'talisman' (again!), but it'd be good to see some balance, fairness and application to all players equally.
It's been a difficult season, and for sure he's struggled with the step up at times - at the start of the season and also recently, but in between and overall he's shown more than enough to prove himself as a L2 player IMO. Whether that's a captain, first teamer, squad player...we'll see going forward.

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Well it seems very much like you are now implying I'm a coward for criticising Cameron, because other people criticise him too. I think maybe you are overthinking this whole business of minority / majority opinions.

I personally think the most important thing by far when discussing a player / manager, or whoever, is an accurate assessment of his performances. It doesn't matter if 1% or 100% of other posters agree.

I do try to be balanced and apply the same criteria to all players equally. I am often critical of other defenders (Baldwin, usually) and honestly I wouldn't lose any sleep if any of them bar Macari or any of our goalkeepers left the club tomorrow. This is not based on following the mob or being vindictive, but the fact that we have objectively the worst defense in the league and have conceded so many goals through individual errors and laspes in concentration that I literally cannot even remember them all.

I was critical of JoB earlier in the season when he was coming on at 70 mins and making mistakes and not getting in to the game. Now he's playing better I'm complimentary about him and giving him better marks. The fact that he has a magpie tattoo and has been with us for years is lovely but doesnt really factor in to what I see on the pitch. Isn't that how it works? Am I missing something?

As far as I see it any sentimental debts were paid at the end of last season with the plaudits the players got at Wembley and afterwards, the crowds of jubilant fans celebrating round the team bus. This is (almost the end of) a new season with a clean slate. The only ethical obligation I have to the players is to try and be fair and not be offensive or vulgar in any criticism.

As regards Cameron in particular, he held out for a good League 2 contract and got one, so should now be judged as a League 2 defender, something which is not going great for him (to use something of a euphemism).

Bizarrely, I don't even think we disagree about the last bit.

So, can we criticise players on this forum or not? Asking for a friend.

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Originally Posted by ThePieWhoCameIn

So, can we criticise players on this forum or not? Asking for a friend.

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Yes, but you're less likely to get flamed if you take steps to qualify it as a personal opinion. That should be taken as read regardless, but for whatever reason many people still can't seem to distinguish the written word on an online forum from that of legacy media text with an expectation for objective impartial facts.
Personally, I usually find the over emotional knee-jerk reactions far more entertaining than considered opinion, that's proper terrace talk, but apparently we're all supposed to type as if we're writing a letter to The Football Post.

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Originally Posted by upthemaggies

Yes, but you're less likely to get flamed if you take steps to qualify it as a personal opinion. That should be taken as read regardless, but for whatever reason many people still can't seem to distinguish the written word on an online forum from that of legacy media text with an expectation for objective impartial facts.
Personally, I usually find the over emotional knee-jerk reactions far more entertaining than considered opinion, that's proper terrace talk, but apparently we're all supposed to type as if we're writing a letter to The Football Post.

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Thank you Swale for that clarification ;D

Or was that an AI generated response? :D

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Originally Posted by the_anticlough

The mob mentality on this subject kicked in some time ago here and then a player become fair game for relentless negative posts. It's cowardly, running with the pack of course.

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Sometimes different people will come to the same conclusion based on the evidence provided to them, it doesn't mean they are running with the pack it is just they have come to the same conclusion.

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Originally Posted by the_anticlough

As I've said he's a player with real, tangible achievements at Notts. One of the only players to lift any kind of silverware for us at Wembley in the last 100 years. His achievements don't mean anything? Are we such a 'what have you done for me lately?' fanbase now that actual achievements aren't worth anything? What's the point of trying in the first place then?

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Football is a results game, it completely is What have you done for me lately.How many extra points do we get this season for getting over 100 last season. How many extra goals do we get if we win the previous game 5-0. its is all about the on the day. Everything he did last season is irrelevant to this one because it gives us nothing.

His and Baldwin's attitude this season it totally unacceptable, they have made mistakes and have not learnt from them. That is completely unforgivable to many of us. How many times do we have to watch them make catastrophic errors only to behave as if it wasn't their fault. i fully expect next year both of them and a few other will be back in the national league.

Neither of them are young players, they should be in the prime of their careers. Well if this is their prime it is no where near good enough for league two.

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Originally Posted by MarcusCole

Sometimes different people will come to the same conclusion based on the evidence provided to them, it doesn't mean they are running with the pack it is just they have come to the same conclusion.



Football is a results game, it completely is What have you done for me lately.How many extra points do we get this season for getting over 100 last season. How many extra goals do we get if we win the previous game 5-0. its is all about the on the day. Everything he did last season is irrelevant to this one because it gives us nothing.

His and Baldwin's attitude this season it totally unacceptable, they have made mistakes and have not learnt from them. That is completely unforgivable to many of us. How many times do we have to watch them make catastrophic errors only to behave as if it wasn't their fault. i fully expect next year both of them and a few other will be back in the national league.

Neither of them are young players, they should be in the prime of their careers. Well if this is their prime it is no where near good enough for league two.

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Your comments leave me speechless !!! - so child-like, do you throw your dummy out of the pram every time things don't go as you would like them to?

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Originally Posted by drillerpie

Well it seems very much like you are now implying I'm a coward for criticising Cameron, because other people criticise him too. I think maybe you are overthinking this whole business of minority / majority opinions.

I personally think the most important thing by far when discussing a player / manager, or whoever, is an accurate assessment of his performances. It doesn't matter if 1% or 100% of other posters agree.

I do try to be balanced and apply the same criteria to all players equally. I am often critical of other defenders (Baldwin, usually) and honestly I wouldn't lose any sleep if any of them bar Macari or any of our goalkeepers left the club tomorrow. This is not based on following the mob or being vindictive, but the fact that we have objectively the worst defense in the league and have conceded so many goals through individual errors and laspes in concentration that I literally cannot even remember them all.

I was critical of JoB earlier in the season when he was coming on at 70 mins and making mistakes and not getting in to the game. Now he's playing better I'm complimentary about him and giving him better marks. The fact that he has a magpie tattoo and has been with us for years is lovely but doesnt really factor in to what I see on the pitch. Isn't that how it works? Am I missing something?

As far as I see it any sentimental debts were paid at the end of last season with the plaudits the players got at Wembley and afterwards, the crowds of jubilant fans celebrating round the team bus. This is (almost the end of) a new season with a clean slate. The only ethical obligation I have to the players is to try and be fair and not be offensive or vulgar in any criticism.

As regards Cameron in particular, he held out for a good League 2 contract and got one, so should now be judged as a League 2 defender, something which is not going great for him (to use something of a euphemism).

Bizarrely, I don't even think we disagree about the last bit.

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As much as I'd like to, there's not a lot to take issue with there. The bone I'm picking on this isn't particularly with you (although that's the way it's turned out), but I'd say that your suggestion that his real level is National League North and South is way, way off.

What I will stand by though is that it became too fashionable to slate this particular player. You could say the waters broke on that and it turned into a deluge of copy-cat criticism, which IMO the overall level of performance didn't merit, nor has it been applied equally or proportionally to the rest of the team. And that's without getting into those achievements for the club. Scapegoating is absolutely the word I use to describe it. And look at the unsavoury mess it's all turned into (although I never look at social media myself).

By the way, would you like to revisit the discussion we had well before Maynard.....me saying the back 3 were exposed by the formation and balance of the team, and you saying they weren't. I'd say that's 1 mark to Maynard for at least identifying the problem. Although solving it, to a certain extent (stopping counters on our backline and being outnumbered) hasn't lead to results and created other problems in turn (see Pedro''s posts on this).

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Originally Posted by BanjoPie

Your comments leave me speechless !!! - so child-like, do you throw your dummy out of the pram every time things don't go as you would like them to?

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Nothing childlike about it. Too many people on this board hate the idea that others disagree with them, you seem to be one of them. It is also one of the aspects of being an adult that you learn from you mistakes, take ownership of them and then develop as a person. Too many players we have won't do that because they are incapable, if they were capable they would have done it.

As for throwing the dummy out of the pram, you seem to be doing that. Are you capable of refuting my points or do you think the insults help prove your point?

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Originally Posted by upthemaggies

Yes, but you're less likely to get flamed if you take steps to qualify it as a personal opinion. That should be taken as read regardless, but for whatever reason many people still can't seem to distinguish the written word on an online forum from that of legacy media text with an expectation for objective impartial facts.
Personally, I usually find the over emotional knee-jerk reactions far more entertaining than considered opinion, that's proper terrace talk, but apparently we're all supposed to type as if we're writing a letter to The Football Post.

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Ha ha I like. I agree, I try to put in my opinion if it's a comment that might not be in line with others, therefore qualifying it as the my own lunatic ramblings. In regards to Cameron, yes he might have turned into abit of a scapegoat but I also think most posters just put what they've seen and this season he's been very soft alot of times. The whole defence barring a couple of players have made mistakes leading directly to goals on more than one occasion, maybe even double figures which of course is going to lead to them getting pelters. Really though you've got to say the overall blame for this lies with the club, the only defender they've brought in permanently is Macari who is a good solid prospect. To have not brought in another couple of experienced, proven defenders is basic negligence.

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Originally Posted by BanjoPie

Your comments leave me speechless !!! - so child-like, do you throw your dummy out of the pram every time things don't go as you would like them to?

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You throw the dummy out of your pram the most out of any poster. Above you're left speechless and on the Cameron thread you say some of the posters are tw@ts. I can't see anywhere on Marcus Coles post he "threw his dummy out" it reads a measured, calm response. Unlike yours.