O/T:- ⚠️Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

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Originally Posted by GranthamPie

Hated?… nah… only by the establishment, never ordinary people. A man of principle, honesty and integrity… values sadly lacking in the current Labour regime. I went to many of the rally’s where he spoke… thousands upon thousands turned up to listen to him speak.

Remember Glastonbury?

https://youtu.be/w2uW5YsJkOE

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Corbyn only spoke to people who already agreed with him. He had no interest or ability to persuade the 10-15 % of people who switch parties and are the key to winning an election. And yes the working class people who I worked/mixed/socialised with did hate him, and if they didn’t hate him, they never thought he was a credible choice as PM. Hence why we have a right wing troglodyte as an MP in Lincoln rather than the still working nurse we had until 2019. And all that’s before we mention anti semitism and pals like Chris Williamson who should never have been anywhere near the Labour Party let alone be an MP.

I fully get why anyone might think Starmer isn’t the most inspiring character as Labour leader. The old saying about not letting perfect be the enemy of good very much holds though, and I want the Labour Party in power where they invariably improve people’s lives more than the self serving cretins who’ve we had for the last 12 years.

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Originally Posted by Elite_Pie

That's about where I'm at. I've never been a big fan of PR before because it all seemed a bit wishy-washy, but after the way this bunch have scandalously and callously abused a big majority I see it as the best way forward, in the short term at least.

As things stand, I can't support any party with conviction, so my vote will again go to the candidate most likely to keep the Tory out.

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You're either in favour of proportional representation or in favour of disproportional representation, there is no other category for that one.

Apart from being obviously fairer, it's the key to smashing our sterile and corrupt two-party system. Their combined vote would probably shrivel from 75% to 35% within a decade. That's why they'll resist it, but while they do they're denying democracy. The UK is just too diverse and complicated in 2022 to be stuffed into 2 archaic out-of-touch parties.

I was excited to see Andy Burnham come out in favour of PR. If he led Labour I could certainly vote for him, always someone aware of how timid his party has become and not afraid to break out of the groupthink and speak out.

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Originally Posted by the_anticlough

You're either in favour of proportional representation or in favour of disproportional representation, there is no other category for that one.

Apart from being obviously fairer, it's the key to smashing our sterile and corrupt two-party system. Their combined vote would probably shrivel from 75% to 35% within a decade. That's why they'll resist it, but while they do they're denying democracy. The UK is just too diverse and complicated in 2022 to be stuffed into 2 archaic out-of-touch parties.

I was excited to see Andy Burnham come out in favour of PR. If he led Labour I could certainly vote for him, always someone aware of how timid his party has become and not afraid to break out of the groupthink and speak out.

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If you’re so keen on getting PR in, refusing to vote Labour seems a strange way of going about it.

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Originally Posted by GranthamPie

As opposed to Patel and Mogg?

Yup.. you’ve sold it to me

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Good point. Well it would be if JRM is chancellor!

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Originally Posted by BigFatPie

If you’re so keen on getting PR in, refusing to vote Labour seems a strange way of going about it.

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Let me get this straight...if you want PR you should vote for a party that opposes it...?!

Tories and Labour will resist it for as long as they can (that's their own selfish interest)...

Hung parliaments would force a rethink. FPTP outcomes will likely become too embarrassing and so glaringly unfair to hold up to scrutiny.
The Greens could get 20% and 0 seats (I'll vote Green) - more actual votes than the SNP, who would get 50+ seats. The old parties would mop up the rest of the 500-600 seats on not much more than the Greens got. (This already happened to The Brexit Party but nobody cared about that, they were always going to deliver their voters straight to the tories).

People need to stop voting for Tories and Labour (while they remain so conservative and opposed to a fair voting system). Only then will this rotten political system of ours collapse and be replaced by something better - more representative, fairer, and open to different voices that will always be drowned out or never heard under FPTP.

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Originally Posted by BigFatPie

If you’re so keen on getting PR in, refusing to vote Labour seems a strange way of going about it.

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Just this minute read this (last but 1 paragraph most important).

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...tury-democracy

And then this

https://labourlist.org/2021/07/exclu...epresentation/

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Originally Posted by the_anticlough

People need to stop voting for Tories and Labour (while they remain so conservative and opposed to a fair voting system). Only then will this rotten political system of ours collapse and be replaced by something better - more representative, fairer, and open to different voices that will always be drowned out or never heard under FPTP.

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We have had progress over centuries to lessen the power of one person (the monarch) and every now and then to increase the number and variety of people who can exercise some power - barons (magna carta), parliament (the civil war), men in general (getting rid of rotten boroughs), women (suffragette movement), younger people (reductions in minimum voting age).

It’s high time we extended a bit further, and made each vote equal (proportional representation) instead of giving swing voters in marginals all the power to decide which of Labour and Conservatives gets to be dictator for the next five years. We’ve never actually given democracy a try.

My vote has never made any difference to who forms the Government - I’ve always lived in a safe seat (Lib Dem or Labour). Has yours?

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Originally Posted by the_anticlough

Let me get this straight...if you want PR you should vote for a party that opposes it...?!

Tories and Labour will resist it for as long as they can (that's their own selfish interest)...

Hung parliaments would force a rethink. FPTP outcomes will likely become too embarrassing and so glaringly unfair to hold up to scrutiny.
The Greens could get 20% and 0 seats (I'll vote Green) - more actual votes than the SNP, who would get 50+ seats. The old parties would mop up the rest of the 500-600 seats on not much more than the Greens got. (This already happened to The Brexit Party but nobody cared about that, they were always going to deliver their voters straight to the tories).

People need to stop voting for Tories and Labour (while they remain so conservative and opposed to a fair voting system). Only then will this rotten political system of ours collapse and be replaced by something better - more representative, fairer, and open to different voices that will always be drowned out or never heard under FPTP.

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Of course Labour are saying they don’t want PR, as a potential party of government they still have to pretend they can win a majority under FPTP. The chances of that though are minimal, as it stands with the colossal defeat in 2019 the best as progressives we can probably hope for is Labour as the biggest party. PR or some other form of electoral reform will naturally flow from that result.

Hoping people will stop voting for Tories or Labour and thinking some other nirvana will establish itself is pie in the sky imo. You have to deal with life as it is rather than how you wish it to be. There’s a reason why the English have never had a proper revolution.

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Originally Posted by BigFatPie

PR or some other form of electoral reform will naturally flow from that result.

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I don't think so, the PLP will fight it tooth and nail (but the fact that the grass roots wants it so strongly will make it hard for them to resist)



It's you that brought 'nirvana' into it...a really poor characterisation of what I'm saying. Seeing the end of our dreadful electoral system is key to giving the country a chance to change - I don't think we can survive any more cycles of tories, red tories, tories...

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Originally Posted by applepie2

It’s high time we extended a bit further, and made each vote equal (proportional representation) instead of giving swing voters in marginals all the power to decide which of Labour and Conservatives gets to be dictator for the next five years. We’ve never actually given democracy a try.

My vote has never made any difference to who forms the Government - I’ve always lived in a safe seat (Lib Dem or Labour). Has yours?

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No, never.

And one thing we can dismiss is the claim that we can't break the link between voters and their constituency MP. What bollox.

Take the recent example - Pincher, the Tory whip ***ually assaulted men in bars after a long track record of doing the same. Apparently, he didn't respond to people anyway. But now he's gone AWOL, 'getting help' but is currently unavailable to his constituents and will be for an indefinite period. That's what they usually do when what they've done is so embarrassing they can't face people, but so much of that constituent-MP bond, don't you think?