O/T:- ⚠️Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

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Originally Posted by drillerpie

The big problem in my view remains that the number of people willing to vote for an old fashioned 'economic left' is quite high, but the economic left is so wedded to the current 'cultural left' or 'intellectual left' (mass immigration, extreme political correctness, perceived or real anti patriotism) that people would probably prefer to vote for the far right, which offers the working class something similar to the economic left but without the compromise on cultural issues.

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I agreed with you up to this point - but the far right do not offer the working class something similar to the economic left. Instead they offer low tax, low public service, everyone for himself, which may seem fine for those who are coping but is a disaster for anyone who hits a bad patch. And it has, in my opinion, some very nasty social consequences.

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Originally Posted by applepie2

I agreed with you up to this point - but the far right do not offer the working class something similar to the economic left. Instead they offer low tax, low public service, everyone for himself, which may seem fine for those who are coping but is a disaster for anyone who hits a bad patch. And it has, in my opinion, some very nasty social consequences.

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I'm talking about further to the right than austerity Conservatives. Completely agree about the potential for nasty social consequences.

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Originally Posted by drillerpie

I'm talking about further to the right than austerity Conservatives. Completely agree about the potential for nasty social consequences.

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Ah, fair enough. I’d only thought about the far right Tory party Britannia Unchained mob.

A quick question for those who talk about 'mass immigration'. You may have seen the recent census figures relating to the age spread of the population. Basically, we are getting older and the birth rate is very low. So, without 'mass immigration', where are all the workers and taxpayers going to come from to support the pensions and healthcare of an aging population? Not to mention all the infrastructure a modern society needs.

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Originally Posted by sinophile

A quick question for those who talk about 'mass immigration'. You may have seen the recent census figures relating to the age spread of the population. Basically, we are getting older and the birth rate is very low. So, without 'mass immigration', where are all the workers and taxpayers going to come from to support the pensions and healthcare of an aging population? Not to mention all the infrastructure a modern society needs.

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Ssshhh the elephant in room! The Germans realised this decades ago… there is not a single country in Europe that has taken in so many refugees (economic or political). The fact that so many sectors in the UK… agriculture, hospitality, social care and healthcare are now suffering massive staff shortages due to those damned Eastern Europeans deciding to bugger off home, should be a warning sign that the country cannot function without migration.

When they raise the pension age to 70, reduce pension benefits, introduce payg doctors appointments, insurance based healthcare etc etc etc… then the xenophobes will finally wake up.

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Originally Posted by Mapperleypie

I completely agree and the sooner the FPTP system is removed the better (the Tories love it but don't even use it for their poxy leadership election). It's *******ised the system for some time leading to many folks not really voting for who they really want to win but instead voting for the least worse option or worse completely wasting their vote.

I do think the only way FPTP is removed soon is by tactical voting at the next election potentially leading to a Lab/Lib Dem coalition.

If you think Labour have lurched too far to the centre for you anticlough I would recommend holding your nose at the ballot box. Sadly a vote for the Greens in nearly every seat in the UK (apart from Brighton & Hove) is a wasted vote under FPTP and assists the Tories.

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I’m 100% behind PR, though I think Driller’s predictions of what may happen to the political landscape could well be pretty accurate. We can’t risk ever having another majority Tory government though.

As regards immigration, it was a major reason why Corbyn and many of his fellow travellers on the far left were ambivalent/supportive about Brexit, they imagined a future where the majority of foreign workers were kicked out f the country and the great British artisan could rightfully claim the wage he was entitled to. How’s that working out?

Corbyn was never anti-immigration. I think the left wing argument for Brexit was much more to with the loss of democratic control (as they saw it) due to decision-making being remote in Brussels.

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Originally Posted by sinophile

Corbyn was never anti-immigration. I think the left wing argument for Brexit was much more to with the loss of democratic control (as they saw it) due to decision-making being remote in Brussels.

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https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...itions-british

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Originally Posted by sinophile

Corbyn was never anti-immigration. I think the left wing argument for Brexit was much more to with the loss of democratic control (as they saw it) due to decision-making being remote in Brussels.

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I disagree. The left of the Labour Party that were against the EU fell into two main camps imo.

- those that saw the driving down of wages by EU migration (which is easily debunked)
- the older guard that saw the single market as some sort of Tory project so was inherently bad.

Both these views were wrong-headed

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Originally Posted by Mapperleypie

If you think Labour have lurched too far to the centre for you anticlough I would recommend holding your nose at the ballot box. Sadly a vote for the Greens in nearly every seat in the UK (apart from Brighton & Hove) is a wasted vote under FPTP and assists the Tories.

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But that kind of thinking is part of the endless closed circle that supports the status quo.
As an individual voter, my single vote is never going to matter anyway. But let's suppose we're talking about voters like me en masse...Still can't do it, unless they pledge PR (or Burnham is leader), it's way beyond 'holding your nose' for me

In any case, I'd like to see all people like me vote Green, try to embarrass the voting system, hope for a hung parliament (likely), see Labour receive that final push into backing electoral reform.

As far as 'the greatest happiness for the greatest number' is concerned, people being a bit better off from 2024-28 is nothing compared to the plight of many future generations of British people ruled by Thatcherites with the occasional Blairite interlude for the rest of the 22nd Century. In terms of risk and reward, there's not enough to lose, too much to gain by rolling the dice and trying to change the country into one that works for everyone.

Since Starmar rejected it, the country's largest union has come out in favour of PR to join 83% of the membership apparently.

Just one simple message on their website.

"Our political class has failed working people and our system is broken. It is time to change our democracy."

https://www.unitetheunion.org/news-e...ter-elections/
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