O/T Democracy

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Originally Posted by ragingpup

By consumer standards, I’m referring to minimum EU health and safety standards, legislation that we abide by to protect consumers.
By worker’s conditions/rights I’m referring to rights that the EU has introduced that help protect workers rights: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7531366.html

Of course, some employers individually will circumvent any standards that are laid down, including exploiting migrant workers. That are breaking these protections and the law. But I don’t think it’s a good idea to do away with the law, just because some people persist in breaking it? Is it?

My question was for animal as he seems to come from a cogent left wing perspective on this, and I would welcome his views on why it might benefit us to move away from these minimum standards that we should aim for, and the worrying thought that the Eurosceptics have the wish to tear up these pesky standards as the central intention for their long standing anti-EU stance.

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Why do we need the EU to decide what standards are acceptable and what are not Raging ?

We aren't a third world country are we ?

This country led the way in standards long before the EU ever came along , even today you can't drink water from the tap in many country's within the EU unless you want the trots for a week for starters .

Are you seriously saying we can't match or better the standards that exist from the EU ? .

I'm amazed you fear the ERG in all honesty , I would say the tories normally but they seem to have lost control of their own party .

Don't we have a GE every five years and if we aren't happy we kick them out ?

Just exactly how much a lifespan do you believe these privileged set of @ss holes have ?

Look at the shyte storm they've created in just a few weeks and look at the numbers that have either resigned , changed party's or simply sacked .

They've even managed to unite the opposition party's despite the Corbyn affect and he looks Prime Ministerial by comparison with Johnson's insane ramblings and hot air .

Far too much drama here for the moderate Tory voter who always put their faith in feeling secure not scared half to death by a bunch of jack booted right wing nut jobs , Tories like Ken Clarke and Dominic Cummings simply turns them off .

You give the present government far more ammunition than they actually have .

Besides Johnson won't get brexit over the line and he'll die because of it , the only reason he got the gig was to deliver it and he looks to be failing spectacularly .

I've outlined on several occasions on this board why I believe membership of EU is detrimental to the working class , it's a neoliberal project who you can't vote out , simple as that .

You will not get the society we'd both like to see while the giant corporations have so much influence in Brussels .

No fecker voted for this in the 1970's I can assure you of that Raging and if we'd known how this thing would grow into its present format we would never have joined , we signed up to a trade agreement not this shyte .

McDonnell and Lady Nugee have confirmed that Labour's position is to hold a new referendum with a choice between May's deal (become an EU colony) or remain in the EU, so a choice between remain and remain, no leave option on the ballot even though leave won the previous referendum. Very fair and democratic.

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Originally Posted by great_fire

The bright from any background though.

House of Commons has only 6% of MPs from a working-class background now.

That's why it's full of middle-class remainers.

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There's a very simple reason for that and the demise of the trade unions plays a significant part .

Labour MP's came from the coal mine and steelworks etc and came up through the ranks as union men , they lived in the house next door and were fully reconciled in working class issues .

What you have today is a bunch of middle class university graduates who have never had to apply for benefits , needed a foodbank or worked a minimum wage job on a ZHC .

It's the social mobility issue once again .

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Originally Posted by animallittle3

Why do we need the EU to decide what standards are acceptable and what are not Raging ?

We aren't a third world country are we ?

This country led the way in standards long before the EU ever came along , even today you can't drink water from the tap in many country's within the EU unless you want the trots for a week for starters .

Are you seriously saying we can't match or better the standards that exist from the EU ? .

I'm amazed you fear the ERG in all honesty , I would say the tories normally but they seem to have lost control of their own party .

Don't we have a GE every five years and if we aren't happy we kick them out ?

Just exactly how much a lifespan do you believe these privileged set of @ss holes have ?

Look at the shyte storm they've created in just a few weeks and look at the numbers that have either resigned , changed party's or simply sacked .

They've even managed to unite the opposition party's despite the Corbyn affect and he looks Prime Ministerial by comparison with Johnson's insane ramblings and hot air .

Far too much drama here for the moderate Tory voter who always put their faith in feeling secure not scared half to death by a bunch of jack booted right wing nut jobs , Tories like Ken Clarke and Dominic Cummings simply turns them off .

You give the present government far more ammunition than they actually have .

Besides Johnson won't get brexit over the line and he'll die because of it , the only reason he got the gig was to deliver it and he looks to be failing spectacularly .

I've outlined on several occasions on this board why I believe membership of EU is detrimental to the working class , it's a neoliberal project who you can't vote out , simple as that .

You will not get the society we'd both like to see while the giant corporations have so much influence in Brussels .

No fecker voted for this in the 1970's I can assure you of that Raging and if we'd known how this thing would grow into its present format we would never have joined , we signed up to a trade agreement not this shyte .

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After 40 years, mostly under the Conservatives, we can look around us and see how effective England has been at establishing standards and protections despite those that are minimum from the EU. Do you think they would like to strip further away at that bone? I think that they would. Sorry, but we know that they would!

I agree that the government look a mess, but we both know that the election machine will kick in and that there is still every chance that the Tories will do as they intend under their new management, take us out without a deal, and then they can really get to work on us punters!

But I asked you what specific EU laws and regs are out there that you feel are the key ones that hold us back. “shackle us to the EU” as many say? I hear you that they are a neo-liberal organisation and favour the big corps, and that you can’t vote the EU as an entity out. I get that. But what specifically are they forcing on us? There must be some serious restrictions that they are placing on us to feel as strongly as you do.

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Originally Posted by animallittle3

There's a very simple reason for that and the demise of the trade unions plays a significant part .

Labour MP's came from the coal mine and steelworks etc and came up through the ranks as union men , they lived in the house next door and were fully reconciled in working class issues .

What you have today is a bunch of middle class university graduates who have never had to apply for benefits , needed a foodbank or worked a minimum wage job on a ZHC .

It's the social mobility issue once again .

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My MP John Healey, was a reporter for the House of Commons newspaper and then an MP, they're definitely living in a bubble.

Andrew Neil tore him apart last week.

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Originally Posted by ragingpup

After 40 years, mostly under the Conservatives, we can look around us and see how effective England has been at establishing standards and protections despite those that are minimum from the EU. Do you think they would like to strip further away at that bone? I think that they would. Sorry, but we know that they would!

I agree that the government look a mess, but we both know that the election machine will kick in and that there is still every chance that the Tories will do as they intend under their new management, take us out without a deal, and then they can really get to work on us punters!

But I asked you what specific EU laws and regs are out there that you feel are the key ones that hold us back. “shackle us to the EU” as many say? I hear you that they are a neo-liberal organisation and favour the big corps, and that you can’t vote the EU as an entity out. I get that. But what specifically are they forcing on us? There must be some serious restrictions that they are placing on us to feel as strongly as you do.

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Well lets take the free movement of labour within the EU as an example .

Would you agree it's design is to drive down wages for the pursuit of greater profit and weakening workers bargaining power but is dressed up as opportunity and the chance to experience different cultures .

Freedom of movement is one thing but freedom of labour is quite another .

Workers in Spain I believe who worked for Viking Line and Laval were replaced by lower paid workers from within the EU and so they took it to European Court Of Justice who found in favour of the employers , tells you everything you need to know about the EU and workers rights .

Admittedly the Labour Party needs to get its self elected post brexit or it affects nothing on that I share a concern or too with you but campaigning to remain in the EU makes their stance on for the many not the few a bit of an own goal , to say the least .

Out of the EU all a Labour Government needs to do is recommit to the European Convention For Human Rights which isn't a EU creation but established by The Council Of Europe , joining International Labour Conventions wouldn't be a bad shout either where affiliated unions could and should commit to a package of progressive legislation and re-establish trade union and workers rights .

Skill shortages I hear you say and I'm listening Raging .

Introduce work permits for the skills we are short of even if they are temporary .

I am sick to death of people telling us that we should not leave the EU but not one of them will tell us why it is better to stay in.

Without a doubt we will be leaving on or before Oct 31 I am positive that it will happen.

Like a lot of people I would like to leave with a deal but only a deal that has a free trade agreement and ends freedom of movement, it must also let our own courts rule supreme and give us back our farming and fishing and allow us to make our own deals with other countries.

If we cannot get that deal then we leave with a clean break. Simples.

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Originally Posted by BigLadonOS

I am sick to death of people telling us that we should not leave the EU but not one of them will tell us why it is better to stay in.

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You might find this interesting Biglad , our entry by Heath in to the common market was illegal and therefore we never actually joined .


https://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2014...-eu-illegally/

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Originally Posted by animallittle3

Well lets take the free movement of labour within the EU as an example .

Would you agree it's design is to drive down wages for the pursuit of greater profit and weakening workers bargaining power but is dressed up as opportunity and the chance to experience different cultures .

Freedom of movement is one thing but freedom of labour is quite another .

Workers in Spain I believe who worked for Viking Line and Laval were replaced by lower paid workers from within the EU and so they took it to European Court Of Justice who found in favour of the employers , tells you everything you need to know about the EU and workers rights .

Admittedly the Labour Party needs to get its self elected post brexit or it affects nothing on that I share a concern or too with you but campaigning to remain in the EU makes their stance on for the many not the few a bit of an own goal , to say the least .

Out of the EU all a Labour Government needs to do is recommit to the European Convention For Human Rights which isn't a EU creation but established by The Council Of Europe , joining International Labour Conventions wouldn't be a bad shout either where affiliated unions could and should commit to a package of progressive legislation and re-establish trade union and workers rights .

Skill shortages I hear you say and I'm listening Raging .

Introduce work permits for the skills we are short of even if they are temporary .

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I’m with you on the tightening up on immigration and allowing for skills shortages for jobs that can’t be filled in the UK.

On that theme, how would you deal with the low skills seasonal workforce and masses of health and care people who effectively prop up the NHS? Or, to put the question another way, what sort of jobs that are currently heavily populated by migrant workers that you would like to change and have them populated by UK workers?

I think we’d both like to improve the pay and conditions of all these jobs to make them more attractive to UK workers who otherwise are not applying for them, but can you see our politicians making this level of investment? Both in upping skills as well as making some very undesirable ‘slog’ work ‘worth it’. In the absence of Kerr, let me devil’s advocate: who would pay for this? Can, for example, seasonal workers in agriculture, already working on very thin profit margins due to our lovely approach to free market capitalism, afford the wage increases that you are counting on?

In effect, I think what you are looking for here is a huge restructuring of economic priorities, that would be ambitious but very expensive, and require a completely different attitude to training and paying a native UK workforce minimum wages that are very much hiked from the current level. I’d applaud that, and be willing to finance it through my taxes. But would the electorate be willing to fund it? Ironically, I would imagine that many of the people citing the ‘migrant wage reduction’ argument have not thought through the radical change needed to overhaul the current system, and when push comes to shove will be the first ones shouting, and voting, us down as the usual big spending, financially illiterate reds!

Lastly: have you read the Migration Advisory Committee report on the impact (+ and -) of migration discussed in summary here: https://www.ft.com/content/797f7b42-...2-17176fbf93f5 It does indeed find a squeeze at lower paid levels, as you’ve argued, but the impact as actually quite minor (5%) in keeping wages low in that worker group. Not sure if you’ve read the full report and what your thoughts are as it does contradict your main argument to some extent.