O/T:- Covid Trump

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Originally Posted by BigFatPie

Kin ell Driller sometimes you’re more defensive than Ardley’s tactics away at Maidenhead.

You returned my question and I thought the first article/photo would help answer it and the second link was info for people (not necessarily you) who think BLM is an inherently violent movement. Sometimes internet discourse isn’t all about refuting things or ‘making points’.

I do disagree with your analysis of the policing of last week. Everyone knew what was happening and the type of people who were likely to turn up. The real reasons for the ill-preparedness of law enforcement have yet to be established, but (and I can’t prove this for sure) black or Muslim protestors wouldn’t have got anywhere near that building under similar circumstances.

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Ok, well if you reply to me, I obviously take it as being meant for me, but anyway no problem.

I agree that the real reasons for the ill preparedness of the police will come out. There are some suggestions that they were left deliberately under manned as some kind of favour to Trump, there are also suggestions that they diverted officers because of bomb scares. We will see.


If you are talking about the level of preparedness and shortage of manpower then I actually agree with you. If you are talking about racist reactions on a personal level, as I think you were when you originally posted about this...

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Originally Posted by BigFatPie

What do you reckon the reaction of law enforcement would be to those protesters if they were black? The same? Different?

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...then I disagree with you, although I'd still be interested to hear your rationale.

On the topic of media, we both agree that these are delicate times and all media outlets should aim to be especially honest and responsible. Do you think that meme gives people who don't look into things in detail (ie most people) a fair impression? Lots of the video I saw was of policemen fighting manfully to try and keep people out, and the National Guard didn't mess around once they got there, so why deliberately compare apples with oranges?

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Originally Posted by BigFatPie

Here’s an article about research showing that the BLM protests this year were overwhelmingly peaceful.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...outputType=amp

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Sorry BFP I've just read the intro by the author of this research, and from his rhetorical style he doesn't strike me as an impartial observer.

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Originally Posted by LaxtonLad

I know people who SAY they don't believe such things but none that really do. Americans though are pummeled into conspiracy beliefs day and night by TV programmers preying on their gullibility and their fears of "Reds under the bed".

So many of them refuse to have their children vaccinated against MMR because of the non-medical, so-called experts telling them the vaccine contains cells from aborted fetuses or it causes autism. It's a lie but the "experts" appear on Oprah or Fox News and call conspiracy or socialism and now you have an increase in childhood illnesses and deaths.

i961pie, I DO know people in England who won't have their kids vaccinated. But these are people who won't have the 'flu vaccine nor will they have the COVID one either because "I'm not having chemicals injected into MY body", and they pompously let everybody know - are they special or what?

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I don't agree, the media made a big thing about adverse reactions to the measles jab when a couple of children died, then social media was awash with people saying it was to dangerous. I agree there will be those who won't have any vaccination at any price but I don't think that was the case with the measles one.

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Originally Posted by drillerpie

Sorry BFP I've just read the intro by the author of this research, and from his rhetorical style he doesn't strike me as an impartial observer.

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Well I know it’s not exactly peer reviewed but it’s just a matter of counting isn’t it, regardless of the literary style of the author, though most people will obviously come to the subject with their own prejudices.

To answer your other post, I’m going to hazard a guess that the lax nature of the response was down to the White Supremacist In Chief in the White House, and a level of sympathy with the cause amongst law enforcement.

Your key sentence seems to me to be ‘the National Guard didn’t mess about once they got there’

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Originally Posted by sidders

When the two non-impartiality TV channels start broadcasting here, you will see an exponential growth in fruit loops on this side of the Pond who will spread their fake news and create solidarity groups.

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Jeez Sid the Tories have managed to get two of their own into the two biggest jobs in the BBC, I’m not sure they and their pals have to start their own channel.

You know how the little snowflakes constantly need their stupid opinions reinforced.

There was a very interesting documentary on ITV the other night called 'Storming the Capitol'. Robert Moore, who is the ITV Washington correspondent was actually alongside the protesters and followed them into the building with his cameraman. It gives a real insight into the typical Trump supporter's mindset, and they are a very strange breed indeed. Worth a look, here's a link for anyone interested:

https://www.itv.com/hub/storming-the...y/10a1177a0001

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Originally Posted by BigFatPie

Well I know it’s not exactly peer reviewed but it’s just a matter of counting isn’t it, regardless of the literary style of the author, though most people will obviously come to the subject with their own prejudices.

To answer your other post, I’m going to hazard a guess that the lax nature of the response was down to the White Supremacist In Chief in the White House, and a level of sympathy with the cause amongst law enforcement.

Your key sentence seems to me to be ‘the National Guard didn’t mess about once they got there’

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An academic, writing as an academic, should in my opinion use a cautious academic style.

This academic doesn't go into much detail about his methodology (he counts comments by the police reported in the press, about violence at these demonstrations, that's great, but which media, and what if there was violence that the police didn't comment on? )

He records violence in different categories,.but what about severity? (damage to property could mean anything from knocking a Trump 2020 sign over to burning down the building it stood outside) and his description of Antifa as anti-fascists doesn't inspire me with confidence. He also makes sweeping conclusions that are not (clearly at least) supported in the text. Sorry to be a party pooper but the line between activism and academia, much as with the line between activism and journalism, has become blurred, so you have to be careful.

Still, if this research is to be believed, if you go on a BLM protest, the chances of being subjected to police violence is really quite small. Not too bad for a systemically racist, white supremacist, neo-fascist dystopia.

Sorry to press you on this but do you think the meme we have both seen, which compares the National Guard getting ready for the 5th day of violent protests in June, with a few under manned normal uniformed policemen facing a huge mob, a few minutes into in a fast developing situation, was an honest attempt to portray the truth or an attempt to mislead people?

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Originally Posted by drillerpie

An academic, writing as an academic, should in my opinion use a cautious academic style.

This academic doesn't go into much detail about his methodology (he counts comments by the police reported in the press, about violence at these demonstrations, that's great, but which media, and what if there was violence that the police didn't comment on? )

He records violence in different categories,.but what about severity? (damage to property could mean anything from knocking a Trump 2020 sign over to burning down the building it stood outside) and his description of Antifa as anti-fascists doesn't inspire me with confidence. He also makes sweeping conclusions that are not (clearly at least) supported in the text. Sorry to be a party pooper but the line between activism and academia, much as with the line between activism and journalism, has become blurred, so you have to be careful.

Still, if this research is to be believed, if you go on a BLM protest, the chances of being subjected to police violence is really quite small. Not too bad for a systemically racist, white supremacist, neo-fascist dystopia.

Sorry to press you on this but do you think the meme we have both seen, which compares the National Guard getting ready for the 5th day of violent protests in June, with a few under manned normal uniformed policemen facing a huge mob, a few minutes into in a fast developing situation, was an honest attempt to portray the truth or an attempt to mislead people?

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Memes, photos, articles are all used how the person citing them wants them to be used. Relevant (imo) to the debate we’re having is this article, though you may not agree

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md...ce-comparison/

Confirmation bias is always a problem in these situations, and we all like to think we’re immune to that , though I’m sure I’m as prone as anyone else.

It seems the BLM movement can’t win in your book, if there’s violence it must be an anarcho-communist Trojan horse which must be resisted, peaceful and it’s a case of ‘what’s the problem?’. In terms of influence which you’ve questioned in the past, I don’t think the Dems would have won the Georgia runoff without the BLM movement.

I’d be interested if Jackal this is the sort of thing that might win Trump voters over.


‘President-elect Joe Biden has unveiled a $1.9tn (£1.4tn) stimulus plan for the coronavirus-sapped US economy before he takes office next week.

If passed by Congress, it would include $1tn for households, with direct payments of $1,400 to all Americans.

The relief proposal includes $415bn to fight the virus and $440bn for small businesses.’

The Republicans are opposed apparently.

A new Sam Harris podcast about current events, hot off the press if anyone is interested!

https://youtu.be/cYC-cqO4yxM

We'll need to make haste if we're gonna sell the NHS to Trumper.