Anyone care to say why Jim Walker is holding a second trophy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanis
Anyone care to say why Jim Walker is holding a second trophy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanis
2nd trophy has to be the Texaco Cup, my dear Andy
I think the correct term is "History". 40 to 45 years ago Derby were the best in the land and proved it with 2 top flight titles. A few years later, the Red Dogs won the title once and were the best in Europe twice and went on to win 4 League Cups. For either club, the last trophy of note was the Dogs League Cup win in 1990. Derby's best season since then was mid 80s when we qualified for the UEFA Cup but didn't get to play in it dur to the ban on English clubs in the aftermath of Heysel.
Since those halcyon days neither club has been a top club. Both have spent most of those seasons in the 2nd or 3rd level of the English football pyramid. We are both where we are and deserve to be there. Fans of both clubs comfort themselves with the thought that those halcyon days will return but there are no guarantees.
Our histories are nice to have but 2 League titles in the 70s or 2 European Cups mean absolutely nothing today.
Sorry if I have poured cold water on some dreams but the above is, IMO, reality and we live, or should do, in the real world.
Absolutely right MA...sadly. Takes us back to Roger's point of last week when he suggested that we aren't currently underachieving...we over achieved for a couple of seasons back in the seventies, just as Forest did a few years later, and expectations have become distorted ever since.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadAmster
There are many clubs like us with brief but glorious histories...Huddersfield, Ipswich, Burnley, Wolves, Blackburn, Newcastle, Forest...but we seem as far away as ever from recreating those days.
On the plus side, Derby is a genuine football town. We have the fan base, the stadium, the training facilities and the desire to move forward. I doubt those days of Derby being Champions will ever be repeated but there is no reason why we can't become an established Premiership side again. Maybe, as you say, lessening the unrealistic expectation and keeping our feet firmly in the 'real world' would help.
I've got no unrealistic expectations, I DREAM of a championship and I HOPE for a prem return, but there's only maybe 20 throws of the dice left in my lifetime and double six doesn't come up that often. However, I constantly refer back in my mind to the fifteen fellahs in the photo above as a benchmark. The other thing about it (and which only we, Forest and Leicester share in the 'modern' era) is that there was a bit of 'magic' in the air about what occurred, it was so unexpected.Quote:
Originally Posted by ramAnag
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadAmster
And sorry too I have to disagree with this part of your post.
1) We are both are where we deserve to be.
Quite accurate but not entirely. For sure our mistakes on and off the field have led us to be 'yesteryear clubs.' Be it the wrong owners, or owners with the wrong concept - Doughty for example, ploughed almost 70 million, some say more, but with no reward. Perhaps if he just went for broke in the first 2 seasons of ownership rather than piecemeal contributions, it might just do the trick.
Then poor managers, followed by wrong and costly signings. Mediocre displays and uninterested players. Probably some more, but you get the gist.
However you overlooked a few things, chiefly, the advent of money into the game, Before FFP, a wealthy owner can come and take a hitherto struggling club to the Premiership, giving that club a huge advantage over clubs like us, whose owners are not as rich or willing to splash. And even now, we have seen some clubs actually do this in spite of FFP, and thus take their place with the elite. QPR being the prime example, and I gather Bournemouth too from what I glanced in a few posts.
Then you have this huge pay-outs from TV in the Prem that provide a majority of relegated clubs another advantage. A sizable number make immediate returns, which was quite different then, where almost 75-80% of Tier 2 clubs were on par, and could each in turn make a sustainable challenge for promotion over a period of say 4-5 seasons. Derby and Forest cannot match the West Hams, Newcastles, possibly even the Burnleys, Villas and Boros, in this financial aspect. Therefore although the promotion ladder shows 6 clubs with the chance, in practise, it's probably just 3 playoffs spots, sometimes, for just 2.
Take your close chase for promotion. Having been there or thereabouts for automatic promotion nearly all winter and spring, you just couldn't sustain it. And then to cruelly lose the play-off final in that fashion. The play-offs is not a fantastic thing as many seem to think.
Effectively you deny a team like yourselves who fought tooth and nail for the automatic promotion and finished 3rd, to another team who was quite far behind in points to brush aside all your points and hard work, by just playing well in 2 end games.
Then don't forget this also affects us in being unable to hold on to any good player we develop. Every good team we build or try to, gets raided by big paying Prem clubs,
Of course it doesn't detract from your main point but I feel cursing or lamenting our bad fortunes as solely down to us, needs to also explain the huge odds staked against us. Of course, we sometimes get a Burnley, a Huddersfield or Bournemouth, but surely these are more exceptions than norms.
2) Fans comforting themselves of a return to past glories. Errm, I don't think so. We don't look for comfort or have wishful thinking. Rather it's hope. Every fan has hope and a wish that his club might 1 day, find all the stars lined up perfectly as it did back in the 70s for us.
Of course a Leicesteresque thing is definitely wishful thinking on our part, but if we indeed got a good owner, a great manager and enough talented and committed players, you never can tell can you? But realistically, all we normally want is to see our teams back in the big time, playing big games and seeing real quality players once more. And then perhaps with a bit of luck we might snatch a League or FA Cup like Swansea or Wigan.
This of course brings me to point 3, which is related to 2 and where I most strongly disagree.
3) 2 League titles and 2 European Cups mean nothing at present - Wrong!! Go tell that to the players, or fans who witnessed these or lived during those heady days. It means everything. As you alluded to, this is unlikely to repeat itself, which entirely explains why it means so much today. When you support small or medium sized clubs, the chance of winning the biggest prizes, let alone the 'minor prizes,' is very remote in one's lifetime.
Historically our clubs have taken 60+ years to win a solitary trophy. Therefore to be around when your team actually wins these is the pinnacle of your support. It's something many fellow fans will never experience. It's something you take to the grave, to enjoy, to reminisces, and frequently discuss. It's much less to do with present fates, rather it's a unique experience and feeling to rekindle irrespective of present day malaise.
Perhaps some will take it as you suggest to forget the present woes, but I'm pretty confident, most of my and your ilk from that era, do not rekindle the glory days to forget the present. Those achievements are there to last a lifetime and always be cherished, separate from all other periods, unless by some chance it does happen a again! Then it would be for that present generation to savour it like we do, while we once again, get to bask in the sunshine of footballing nirvana.
So I don't think anyone of us is blind to reality. We from that era accept that it's unlikely to re-occur in our lifetime, yet we still hope that it will happen in the lifetime of another 'lucky or blessed' generation of fans. That our unceasing joys, will also be theirs in future, to carry and pass on.
1. Mismanagement by professionals and monied owners have beset both teams. Tommy Doc signalled our downfall and has since then admitted he dod too much too quickly in changing the squad he inherited. What he did in 1 go should have been spread over 3 years. If he had we might have still been up there. We will never know. We have had a string of other poor managers but also enjoyed TBE, Brollyman's 1st tenure, George Burley and Arthur Cox. Billy D hit us with a double edged sword. Got us promoted and then, on the pitch at Wembley said he wished he was doing it with Preston and then went on a 3 week holiday rather than get down to getting the necessary players in. We had little or no money to spend so maybe it wasn't all his fault although we were top in January, he spent a ruck of cash and we finished 3rd...... Then we have had Pickering as Chairman who put just about all of his millions into the club to no avail. Mel Morris is doing the same at the moment. In both cases, their money has been wasted on inflated fees and wages including long contracts for players who don't deserve them. You too have had Doughty who ploughed a fortune in, wasted by managers...... Mistakes have been made and those have ensured we are where we are.
2. I share that wish and hope fervently that today's young supporters will get to experience what we did back in the 70s.
3. Of course it means everything to you and I and the players of that time and to others from way back when but my point was intended to point to today's younger fan and possibly some managers and players as well. Many fans won't know what our clubs managed in the 70s. Most managers probably will but I wouldn't be surprised if some of them and a decent number of players don't. You and I are proper dinosaurs, Derby/Forest till we die. There are far too many "Chelsea for a week" types around these days.
Of course, I am Derby until the day before I die. The day I die I will become a Forest fan as I would much rather lose one of yours than one of ours ;)
A most excellent reply, so much so, my only input would be to concur with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadAmster
Brilliant Romanis and MadAmster!!
Dinosaurs rule. I wouldn't trade those teen memories of the 70s for success nowadays in my 60s. Then it was magical, it was special, nasty pies and cups of tea or bovril on the terraces. Success today would be plastic, stereotyped, every moment pored over in detail on TV. I am not saying I dont want it, but success would just not be the same as it was back then.
I pity todays schoolkids who now only have today's moneyball to watch.