All this empathy for refugees all of a sudden

Every country spouts its own propaganda. Lets you see and not see whatever it wants. The hospitals bombed by the British and Americans in Iraq for example won't make the news. A Palestinian 12 year old girl was beaten badly by Israeli soldiers but because Britain is pro Israel it isn't made a meal of. There are wars we don't even hear about because they don't concern the British Governments. As soon as they do fit the Agenda out come the violins. The bottom line is wherever you live. WAR STINKS, however you dress it up or down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by boingy

Every country spouts its own propaganda. Lets you see and not see whatever it wants. The hospitals bombed by the British and Americans in Iraq for example won't make the news. A Palestinian 12 year old girl was beaten badly by Israeli soldiers but because Britain is pro Israel it isn't made a meal of. There are wars we don't even hear about because they don't concern the British Governments. As soon as they do fit the Agenda out come the violins. The bottom line is wherever you live. WAR STINKS, however you dress it up or down.

---

Sorry Boingy your talking bollox!! Are you saying the Americans and British deliberately bombed over 20 hospitals strategically killing women and kids? Are you saying the Americans and British would trap civilians in a city for 10 days without letting them out for food and water or better to escape.

Get your f uckin glasses on as clearly you have no feelings. Not your family though is it!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by boingy

Every country spouts its own propaganda. Lets you see and not see whatever it wants. The hospitals bombed by the British and Americans in Iraq for example won't make the news. A Palestinian 12 year old girl was beaten badly by Israeli soldiers but because Britain is pro Israel it isn't made a meal of. There are wars we don't even hear about because they don't concern the British Governments. As soon as they do fit the Agenda out come the violins. The bottom line is wherever you live. WAR STINKS, however you dress it up or down.

---

News coming on so perhaps the violins for 1300 citizens killed in one city alone and thousands more not let out for food and water!!!

War stinks - so perhaps the war in Cyprus stank just a much as what Hitler did!!!

If you can’t see what Putin is doing ( same as Hitler ) then sorry your feelings are like iron!

No hope!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by baggieal

Sorry Boingy your talking bollox!! Are you saying the Americans and British deliberately bombed over 20 hospitals strategically killing women and kids? Are you saying the Americans and British would trap civilians in a city for 10 days without letting them out for food and water or better to escape.

Get your f uckin glasses on as clearly you have no feelings. Not your family though is it!!!

---

By the way I've had discussions with ex military who were told to kill men women and children and then found out it was for oil rights! My comments were that WAR is the bad thing and that nobody has an unblemished record. Was there no slave trade then? Did we not deliberately sink ships with slaves on to get the insurance?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by boingy

By the way I've had discussions with ex military who were told to kill men women and children and then found out it was for oil rights! My comments were that WAR is the bad thing and that nobody has an unblemished record. Was there no slave trade then? Did we not deliberately sink ships with slaves on to get the insurance?

---

Oh we are going back to the slave trade now!! Does that include all the Roman monuments too built by slaves of all colours and religion?

Yes any war is a bad thing but there’s a difference to say Turkey invading Cyprus and mass murder by Hitler. It’s now Putin who is committing strategic murder by civilians including woman and children. Don’t even try to convince me in Iraq the West purposely and knowingly targeted civilian hospitals and civilian areas! Tells the story in Russia when their own people are jailed for protesting!

There was a reasoned worldwide debate with Regis but your comment about getting the violins out was insensitive!

When Kiev is no doubt demolished including its civilians you will no doubt say all wars stink and hey ho!

I think that the heat and fog of war means that innocents are killed either by mistake or deliberately in all wars and by all sides.

Historically, of course Britain has taken actions that would now be described as war crimes or human rights violations whether that be participating in the slave trade, the setting up of concentration camps during the Boer War, the bombing of Dresden, the government's response to the famine in Ireland in 1847 or India in 1943 or the actions of the British Army during the Mao Mao uprising. All countries have been guilty of this at some point in their history and a quick check under "Africa", as an example, on the BBC news site will soon inform you that it still goes on in many beside Ukraine.

The point is that there is a difference between what can happen on the battlefield in individual circumstances and a country's formal policies regarding how they wage war. In Afghanistan, as an example, the Rules of engagement and guerrilla tactics used by Taliban as well as the number of insurgents (who dressed and looked like civilians rather than wear uniforms) made individual cases where innocents got killed almost inevitable. But the formal policy was not to target civilians. By contrast, Putin's playbook is clearly to deliberately target civilians as well as military ones and this includes shelling, medieval siege tactics and -probably-chemical warfare.That, to me, is the difference.

Is there not something suspicious in the co-ordinated sanctioning of Russian businesses to the detriment of ordinary citizens without proper scrutiny over links to Putin's vile regime - no other narrative allowed just like Covid. Zelensky previously was making the wrong headlines now all of a sudden he is lauded by all, (I do think he comes across very well).

There is little or no news of the nazi element in Ukraine either, just as in Syria there was Assad's regime and their opposition, ISIS were also operating so surely we need to know the full picture in Ukraine?

On refugees - I feel it's more a case of cultures where the way of life & customs are so markedly different it is natural to group together in a foreign country. I don't know what the answer is beyond going after the traffickers in a big way by employing ex military personnel to make life very uncomfortable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omegstrat6

I think that the heat and fog of war means that innocents are killed either by mistake or deliberately in all wars and by all sides.

Historically, of course Britain has taken actions that would now be described as war crimes or human rights violations whether that be participating in the slave trade, the setting up of concentration camps during the Boer War, the bombing of Dresden, the government's response to the famine in Ireland in 1847 or India in 1943 or the actions of the British Army during the Mao Mao uprising. All countries have been guilty of this at some point in their history and a quick check under "Africa", as an example, on the BBC news site will soon inform you that it still goes on in many beside Ukraine.

The point is that there is a difference between what can happen on the battlefield in individual circumstances and a country's formal policies regarding how they wage war. In Afghanistan, as an example, the Rules of engagement and guerrilla tactics used by Taliban as well as the number of insurgents (who dressed and looked like civilians rather than wear uniforms) made individual cases where innocents got killed almost inevitable. But the formal policy was not to target civilians. By contrast, Putin's playbook is clearly to deliberately target civilians as well as military ones and this includes shelling, medieval siege tactics and -probably-chemical warfare.That, to me, is the difference.

---

Your last paragraph is very accurate. We should also remember it’s 2022 now and we thought the atrocities of Hitler were written in history. So sad that a 69 year old has such power within his murdering hands!

The big difference in the refugees from Ukraine to those from the Middle East and Africa is that these are all women, children and the elderly, these pose no security risk at all, if they have a Ukrainian passport we should provide 12 months automatic asylum and review depending on the situation at the end of that time. To turn our backs is inhuman.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DaveP67 is back!

The big difference in the refugees from Ukraine to those from the Middle East and Africa is that these are all women, children and the elderly, these pose no security risk at all, if they have a Ukrainian passport we should provide 12 months automatic asylum and review depending on the situation at the end of that time. To turn our backs is inhuman.

---

Agreed. There should be a fastrack for these situations, Poland is an obvious choice because of language and culture similarities and ease of return (hopefully).