OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

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Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone

#2 You are, as they say "alright Jack".You will, I imagine. have retired on a gilt edged teacher style pension or a company "final salary" defined benefits scheme. Many that preceded you will have not had the "corporate pension" and those that follow will, eventually, have their own private fund built up. Those in transition, say at 50, may be caught in a gap with neither.

Defined benefits are history - even in the civil service, the savings risk has been passed to the stakeholder. if you avoid equity investments and stay fixed rate or cash, you will not be likely to have covered the pension management fees over the last 6 or 7 years of negative to marginal interest rates. The new generation of defined contribution pension holder have been force to take a significantly less risk averse stance than they should with their pension savings. It has paid off generally over the past years, but if you "rape" company profits and shareholders, you are raping the pensioners of the future.

Oh and, by the way, Apple dont need the assistance of tax changes to manage to sell less iPhones, they have managed that all on their own!!

#4 Farmers need help to run their farms? Really? I grew up on a 150 acre arable farm - my Dad had 2 full time and occasional casual workers. My grand dad had maybe 12 workers on a similar unit. My brother currently farms 1000+ acres, has a significant contracting business and has 1 full time staff member and a few seasonal vehicle operatives

So the answer is that machinery has virtually replaced all labour, and those operators are being phased out by the arrival of self drive tractors etc and amazingly accurate GPS systems and mapping. All that is really needed is a few part time seasonal fruit and veg pickers if you are in that sector.

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Seems my knowledge of farming is a tad out of date. Thanks for the update. All in all, Swales questions, designed to put me in a corner, appear to have backfired somewhat with me providing viable answers and you correcting me on one.

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

Not I, RA (GP can speak for himself)

1. I voted Remain, that's fact

2. I've been consistent in saying that, once the result was in, everyone in their own way should fully devote themselves to making Brexit work.

3. I've been consistent in pointing the finger of failure at those who didn't devote themselves in that manner. That cohort includes just about every politician I could name, and, regretrably also you.

4. I've been consistent in stating that if (if iF) the question was asked again I'd vote Remain again

5. The way I square the apparent contradiction of 3. and 4. is that I live in the here and now, where 4. is just a pipedream of a mardy minority, whereas 3. is something I can actually contribute to

Its back to the pragmatist versus idealist thing again

On a related subject, did you see 'Brexit An Uncivil War'? If you didn't you should, it nailed the pre-referendum farce in 90 mins. Fantastically cast, especially Arran Banks, not sure if you'd admire the portrayal or explode with rage at the renewed memory of Banks' existence. And if you want to cut to the quick of the whole thing, go to 1 hour 12 minutes on C4 catchup and watch the next minute, maybe a dramatised event but it crystallises the whole reason Remain lost, a single white female saying it loud and proud for the folk Martin Fry called 'the silent majority, seen and never heard'. As usual I'll sign this off by reminding you I voted, and would vote again, Remain

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Okay Andy, I’ve eventually got round to watching it.
Thought it was as good as it was alarming and I agree, the portrayal of Aaron Banks was brilliant...nothing but a very wealthy political thug...and I’ve certainly not forgotten him.
The overwhelming thing for me was the further confirmation of the fact that Brexit has seen the democratic process hijacked and ‘bought off’ by the ‘dirty money’, lies and breaking of electoral rules by Banks and Co.
Given that context I’m staggered that you think everything is ‘crystallised’ by the ‘single white female’ who feels abandoned and disempowered by the system. It’s an important dramatic moment and I entirely understand both her frustration and your sympathy, but it is surely the UK establishment and British politicians not the EU that has created that situation.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Okay Andy, I’ve eventually got round to watching it.
Thought it was as good as it was alarming and I agree, the portrayal of Aaron Banks was brilliant...nothing but a very wealthy political thug...and I’ve certainly not forgotten him.
The overwhelming thing for me was the further confirmation of the fact that Brexit has seen the democratic process hijacked and ‘bought off’ by the ‘dirty money’, lies and breaking of electoral rules by Banks and Co.
Given that context I’m staggered that you think everything is ‘crystallised’ by the ‘single white female’ who feels abandoned and disempowered by the system. It’s an important dramatic moment and I entirely understand both her frustration and your sympathy, but it is surely the UK establishment and British politicians not the EU that has created that situation.

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Glad you caught up with it.

I'm not sure I was making any big point about who created the situation, just that such a situation was indeed created.

In fact, until a few years ago, when my employment changed after 20 plus years from dealing mainly with other people in my company to dealing with 'the public', I would have had no sympathy with her, I wouldn't have even understood what she was ranting about, but I've now seen outside what I now realise was a 'bubble' I was living in, and can now completely see why folk made a decision contrary to that expected. There was SO much frustration bottled up within the 'class' (maybe that's not the right word) of people who I would describe as 'non-influencers', and I think the referendum was the point at which the top of the bottle popped off

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

The overwhelming thing for me was the further confirmation of the fact that Brexit has seen the democratic process hijacked and ‘bought off’ by the ‘dirty money’, lies and breaking of electoral rules

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Not arguing against there being dirty money involved, but what struck ME, (and I always thought this was the case), was that the Remain effort was run by people acting and thinking like politicians and assuming that the voters would 'do the right thing', whereas Leave was driven by folk (or, it now appears, mainly by a single person) who treated it simply as a contest that was there to be won. There's actually nothing wrong with that IMO, regardless of whether I agree with the outcome or not

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

Not arguing against there being dirty money involved, but what struck ME, (and I always thought this was the case), was that the Remain effort was run by people acting and thinking like politicians and assuming that the voters would 'do the right thing', whereas Leave was driven by folk (or, it now appears, mainly by a single person) who treated it simply as a contest that was there to be won. There's actually nothing wrong with that IMO, regardless of whether I agree with the outcome or not

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I can’t argue with that Andy and have never argued against the idea that the Remain campaign was dominated by complacency.
That’s not really the issue though imo. Complacency is a fault for sure, but aren’t the use of ‘dirty money’ - either from Aaron Banks, Russia or Robert Mercer - not to mention the deliberate misleading of the public and breaking of electoral rules far greater ‘sins’/crimes?
Much has been said, in defence of Leave, that to ignore the original Referendum would be a challenge to the democratic process, but surely what the programme exposed was that the democratic process has already been horribly and blatantly compromised.

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Originally Posted by MadAmster

1. Immigration. Not of the mass variety but bringing in qualified people to do the jobs currently open and pay them well for it. Pretty much the way Switzerland does.

2. If you remember, I am an ex-pat and I retired at 60 on my private pension. I would like to steer you to one of those earlier fatuous arguments of mine, that the crisis in pensions and care is down to successive governments ignoring the obvious for more than 60 years because to make any contingency plans would cost money and thus increase taxes and lessen their chances of being re-elected. The older members of society are now the victims of decades of politicians looking after themselves to the detriment of the rest. Where could the money come from? An obvious idea is to make sure the mega rich aka the 1% and the multinationals actually pay the correct % of taxes on ALL of their income. Do that and the gap in the UK budget may well be filled. Do it and Costa will not sell less coffee, McDonald's will not sell less hamburgers, Apple will not sell less iPhones etc etc etc. All that will happen is that the companies would pay more tax, shareholders would pay more tax and the rest of the UK would remain the same. Pay UK taxes on ALL income generated in the UK.

3. Your question is basically a repeat of #1 so my answer is the same as my answer to #1.


T

4. Farmers either foreign or domestic. Whwere will farmers get the staff to help them run their farms? See #1 and #3.

Going back to an earlier post, I asked you to do some explaining. You keep on with this holier than thou attitude because "you know more than we do" and "we don't understand". Instead of being so damned sanctimonious about it, why not tell us what is right, how we are wrong and give us some facts we can check to explain why we are wrong. All you have done so far is denegrate others without giving any foundation to your thoughts other than "you know more".

I asked you to enlighten us. I am still waiting but not holding my breath.

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hen I wont bother wasting my time trying to explain complex matters to you! Its clear from yours and other remarks on here that a lot of your so called arguments are, as Andy posted previously a moan about the unfairness of the way economic system works and somehow blaming the EU for that or being an extension of that - in point of fact the EU has done quite a lot for social justice and improving the lot of the "average" punter, but you and other seem to ignore that.

Just as you ignore the fact that those pushing Brexit are hardly philanthropists interested in those lower down the economic scale, they see it as an opportunity to further their economic advantage by exploiting people further.

If you who I'll assume is a person of average intelligence cannot even begin to grasp the negative impact of a no deal Brexit, then what hope do others have?

As for the fairy tale about mass immigration (i question the word mass but hey thats just a quibble)and how its not needed, well if we can overnight become this fantasy ideal socialist state you envisage, maybe, though the questions I posed are still relevant even if you cannot see that.

By the way with all this mass immigration as you call it unemployment stands at 4%, basically full employment, so the argument about skilled and unskilled immigration is facile - we need labour or the economy is ****ed.

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Originally Posted by MadAmster

Seems my knowledge of farming is a tad out of date. Thanks for the update. All in all, Swales questions, designed to put me in a corner, appear to have backfired somewhat with me providing viable answers and you correcting me on one.

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Well good luck with those automatic machines that will do those agricultural task that to date are reliant on manual labour which is where most immigrants have been used!

As for being designed to back you into a corner, nah youve done that by yourself with your rather naive posts that bear no relation to facts.

Jeez its so funny reading stuff on here, the answers it seems are so simple, a number of you should be politicians because you have it all sussed!

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Originally Posted by swaledale

hen I wont bother wasting my time trying to explain complex matters to you! Its clear from yours and other remarks on here that a lot of your so called arguments are, as Andy posted previously a moan about the unfairness of the way economic system works and somehow blaming the EU for that or being an extension of that - in point of fact the EU has done quite a lot for social justice and improving the lot of the "average" punter, but you and other seem to ignore that.

Just as you ignore the fact that those pushing Brexit are hardly philanthropists interested in those lower down the economic scale, they see it as an opportunity to further their economic advantage by exploiting people further.

If you who I'll assume is a person of average intelligence cannot even begin to grasp the negative impact of a no deal Brexit, then what hope do others have?

As for the fairy tale about mass immigration (i question the word mass but hey thats just a quibble)and how its not needed, well if we can overnight become this fantasy ideal socialist state you envisage, maybe, though the questions I posed are still relevant even if you cannot see that.

By the way with all this mass immigration as you call it unemployment stands at 4%, basically full employment, so the argument about skilled and unskilled immigration is facile - we need labour or the economy is ****ed.

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It has been said that "they" (EU) want between 50 and 60 million immigrants in the next 10 years. That is, to me, mass immigration. I am intrigued as to how many million would be needed to meet your definition of mass immigration.

I am not advocating socialism. What I am advocating is that the "1%" and the multinationals pay "proper" amounts of tax, just as we have to. No more of this pushing money over 37 national borders to end up with paying 5 quid tax in some tax haven. Within every country, a company buys "ingredients", turns them into a product (goods or services) and sells them on to the consumer. At the end of the financial year they, hopefully, end up with a profit. Every penny of profit made in the UK should be taxed in the UK. Every Euro cent of profit made in the Netherlands should be taxed in the NL.

I am also advocating changing the way the stocks, shares, commodity and money markets work. Remove the gambling factor. Stop the likes of Soros virtually bankrupting a country and its inhabitants by buying up their currency and then dumping it on the market in one fell swoop causing the currency to plummet to an almost worthless level.

Strangely enough, and I have said this before, that would involve an international effort as an individual country doing it would see that country in deep financial trouble inside 24 hours. Unfortunately, the best vehicle available in this region is the EU at the moment.

In another answer you wrote "By the way with all this mass immigration as you call it unemployment stands at 4%, basically full employment, so the argument about skilled and unskilled immigration is facile - we need labour or the economy is ****ed."

Yes, the UK needs labour. As I also said in a previous post, bring the people in who have the skills for that work. Don't bring people in who don't have the skills the country needs. Switzerland does it, USA too, New Zealand, Australia, Canada etc etc etc etc Why shouldn't the UK? For instance, the NHS has over 100K vacancies. The vast majority of those looking to leave their current location and relocate to the EU/UK do not have the skills for those jobs.........

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Okay Andy, I’ve eventually got round to watching it.
Thought it was as good as it was alarming and I agree, the portrayal of Aaron Banks was brilliant...nothing but a very wealthy political thug...and I’ve certainly not forgotten him.
The overwhelming thing for me was the further confirmation of the fact that Brexit has seen the democratic process hijacked and ‘bought off’ by the ‘dirty money’, lies and breaking of electoral rules by Banks and Co.
Given that context I’m staggered that you think everything is ‘crystallised’ by the ‘single white female’ who feels abandoned and disempowered by the system. It’s an important dramatic moment and I entirely understand both her frustration and your sympathy, but it is surely the UK establishment and British politicians not the EU that has created that situation.

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RA your getting a bit tiresome by you "dirty money "comments on the Brexit side I have posted on here before that Remain did exactly the same I will gladly 're post it if you would like me to

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Originally Posted by mistaram

RA your getting a bit tiresome by you "dirty money "comments on the Brexit side I have posted on here before that Remain did exactly the same I will gladly 're post it if you would like me to

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Sorry you find it tiresome, mista. The whole bloody thing is monumentally tiresome imo, but it’s sadly also crucial to all our futures.
I’ll happily accept that those in favour of Remain may have exaggerated at times but as far as abiding by the rules and the use of ‘dirty’ money is concerned I think you’ll find that the Leave campaign has rather more to hide. Still if you can find a Remain equivalent of Aaron Banks, Russia and the Trump loving, Farage befriending Robert Mercer then post away.