O/T:- ⚠️Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

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Originally Posted by drillerpie

So yeah the dictator argument is a seductive one but I think if you look at the facts, the biggest advances in a lot of the countries we mentioned (Italy, Germany, Japan post WW2, China 1970, Russia hasn't really happened yet but may do in the future) came when they got rid of their Fuhrer/Emperor/Duce and integrated into the western system, accepted their borders were not going to change, and stopped posing a threat to their neighbours.

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Disagree with that bit, there was a period after the fall of the USSR where Russia was very forward looking and prosperous. In remember when I first started meeting Russians on my travels after they had been freed from the communist yolk. There were even murmurs during the turn of the 21st century, that Russia, may look to join the EU. Then came Putin, whose popularity plummets with the death of every, septuagenarian who is dewy eyed for the old days when Russia was feared, yet they seem to forget the bread queues when a piece of meat would cost a weeks wages.

There is no reason why Russia could not be a superpower like China, it could be virtually, self sustaining if run properly.

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Originally Posted by Lullapie

Do you not see China as an autocracy currently? Xi Jinping is seen by many Chinese as a dictator. I've worked with many ex-pat Chinese people here and they have contrasting views of China. Most see Xi as a modern day Stalin and are nervous about saying anything negative in public about him, even in New Zealand.

Now that's an overreaching arm of control.

I'm presuming you are in the UK - correct me if I'm wrong :). In NZ, Australia and the Pacific, China is seen as the number threat to world peace. They have most governments over a barrel, because of the money that they spend with those countries.

In Africa, the Chinese policy of Belt and Road is putting already impoverished African countries into even more debt, but the Chinese government are extracting their 'interest' payments from natural resources. They are the modern day colonisers.

Along with the abuse of human rights on the Chinese mainland and the offshore territories, it looks like a dictatorship to me.

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I'm not sure there can be any doubt that China is a dictatorship with a cowed people. I remember my first visit to China, just before the Beijing Olympics, there had been some concern that the event would be cancelled due to poor air quality. I distinctly remember, asking our tour guide on the day about this and as we boarded the bus in choking smog, she completely denied that there was an issue.

Recently in Africa, I've seen the work gangs, labouring on roads in searing heat as their Chinese overlords, supervised from the cover of a parasol. It was ever so slightly unsettling, one couldn't help being transported back two hundred years as if you were watching a slave gang, the only thing missing was the bullwhip. China will corner the market in REM's, that's if they haven't done so already, the biggest threat to their dominance of Africa, comes from the Russians who are operating as usual, less visibly, in the background.

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Originally Posted by Med Pie

I'm not sure there can be any doubt that China is a dictatorship with a cowed people. I remember my first visit to China, just before the Beijing Olympics, there had been some concern that the event would be cancelled due to poor air quality. I distinctly remember, asking our tour guide on the day about this and as we boarded the bus in choking smog, she completely denied that there was an issue.

Recently in Africa, I've seen the work gangs, labouring on roads in searing heat as their Chinese overlords, supervised from the cover of a parasol. It was ever so slightly unsettling, one couldn't help being transported back two hundred years as if you were watching a slave gang, the only thing missing was the bullwhip. China will corner the market in REM's, that's if they haven't done so already, the biggest threat to their dominance of Africa, comes from the Russians who are operating as usual, less visibly, in the background.

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100%. I fully agree. I have a Zimbabwean friend who took his family back last year.
He said that the only people there with money were Chinese.

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Originally Posted by Lullapie

I also learned about the Belgian Congo at school. It was the only colony Belgian had in Africa as Leopold was late to the party. The Belgians were recognised as the cruelest of all the colonisers and with all authoritarianism regimes, the way to control the populous is to either under-educate them or educate them with propaganda.

Amin is the common example of the left of how the British installed a dictator, who was cruel and merciless. However, I prefer to use Mugabe as a better example. He was allowed to take control in Zimbabwe and decimated his political opponents and his country's economy. You don't hear that much of him now. The West turned a blind eye to him and tried to forget what they had allowed to take control.

Do you not see China as an autocracy currently? Xi Jinping is seen by many Chinese as a dictator. I've worked with many ex-pat Chinese people here and they have contrasting views of China. Most see Xi as a modern day Stalin and are nervous about saying anything negative in public about him, even in New Zealand.

Now that's an overreaching arm of control.

I'm presuming you are in the UK - correct me if I'm wrong :). In NZ, Australia and the Pacific, China is seen as the number threat to world peace. They have most governments over a barrel, because of the money that they spend with those countries.

In Africa, the Chinese policy of Belt and Road is putting already impoverished African countries into even more debt, but the Chinese government are extracting their 'interest' payments from natural resources. They are the modern day colonisers.

Along with the abuse of human rights on the Chinese mainland and the offshore territories, it looks like a dictatorship to me.

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Sorry if I wasn't clear. Yes I do see China as a dictatorship - there can be no doubt about that as it's a one party state with strict censorship and repression.

My point was that as with the other countries we were speaking about (Japan/Germany/Italy) they integrated themselves into the world economy and got the benefits. That was supposed to kick start a chain of events whereby they became a liberal democracy, but they surprised everyone by combining western capitalism with strict authoritarian government. That is quite rare for a dictatorship - they normally have natural resources and run corrupt, inefficient economies. I think the best decision they made since WW2 was to put one foot in our club, but it looks like they've now decided to rebel against the club, which I don't think will end well for them.

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Originally Posted by Med Pie

Disagree with that bit, there was a period after the fall of the USSR where Russia was very forward looking and prosperous. In remember when I first started meeting Russians on my travels after they had been freed from the communist yolk. There were even murmurs during the turn of the 21st century, that Russia, may look to join the EU. Then came Putin, whose popularity plummets with the death of every, septuagenarian who is dewy eyed for the old days when Russia was feared, yet they seem to forget the bread queues when a piece of meat would cost a weeks wages.

There is no reason why Russia could not be a superpower like China, it could be virtually, self sustaining if run properly.

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I agree with your overall point about how different Russia could be, hence why I said it may happen in the future, but I don't think we can put them alongside countries like Japan / Italy / Germany which got rid of their autocrats who cared more about invading neighbouring countries than the well bejng of the people.

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Originally Posted by Lullapie

I also learned about the Belgian Congo at school. It was the only colony Belgian had in Africa as Leopold was late to the party. The Belgians were recognised as the cruelest of all the colonisers and with all authoritarianism regimes, the way to control the populous is to either under-educate them or educate them with propaganda.

Amin is the common example of the left of how the British installed a dictator, who was cruel and merciless. However, I prefer to use Mugabe as a better example. He was allowed to take control in Zimbabwe and decimated his political opponents and his country's economy. You don't hear that much of him now. The West turned a blind eye to him and tried to forget what they had allowed to take control.

Do you not see China as an autocracy currently? Xi Jinping is seen by many Chinese as a dictator. I've worked with many ex-pat Chinese people here and they have contrasting views of China. Most see Xi as a modern day Stalin and are nervous about saying anything negative in public about him, even in New Zealand.

Now that's an overreaching arm of control.

I'm presuming you are in the UK - correct me if I'm wrong :). In NZ, Australia and the Pacific, China is seen as the number threat to world peace. They have most governments over a barrel, because of the money that they spend with those countries.

In Africa, the Chinese policy of Belt and Road is putting already impoverished African countries into even more debt, but the Chinese government are extracting their 'interest' payments from natural resources. They are the modern day colonisers.

Along with the abuse of human rights on the Chinese mainland and the offshore territories, it looks like a dictatorship to me.

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An excellent, eye opening scenario, well presented !
The Chinese Government are indeed the new colonialists with dominance ensuing after their " aid development" interventions.
The fact that they have a "plan B " alternative should also be a matter of concern. There are " alleged " reports of a mass expansion programme of the production of large troop landing vessels.

In relation to your comment about Zimbabwe I used to know a couple of Rhodesians who had been conscripted into the armed forces.
Some enlightening conversations !
The Great Betrayal by former PM , Ian Smith is also worth reading.

There's a great two part podcast on King Leopold II.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMloSu7-iGU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jezjb04zy2g

Edit: Also we essentially still do colonise a lot of the world, it's just mostly done through corporations now which leads to dependencies on those items.

Such as baby forumula, it's donated to Africa however they barely get enough for each child to reach a mature age where they don't need it, and they are told it's better than breastfeeding, which results in mums eventually not being able to produce milk for their kids through them just using the formula instead.

And because they don't get enough they then water the formula down more than usual to make it last, and they are told to do that, but it then obviously results in the children not growing properly because of lack of nutrition.

It's gross.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Nestl%C3%A9_boycott

Interesting post from HP1862
and thanks for that.
Considering the Net Zero campaign "attacks" on farmers across a variety of fronts , designed to reduce agricultural production , artificial baby milk production might possibly have greater importance in the future.
Not all new mothers are able to breast feed babies naturally either ?

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Originally Posted by SinceSept1959

An excellent, eye opening scenario, well presented !
The Chinese Government are indeed the new colonialists with dominance ensuing after their " aid development" interventions.
The fact that they have a "plan B " alternative should also be a matter of concern. There are " alleged " reports of a mass expansion programme of the production of large troop landing vessels.

In relation to your comment about Zimbabwe I used to know a couple of Rhodesians who had been conscripted into the armed forces.
Some enlightening conversations !
The Great Betrayal by former PM , Ian Smith is also worth reading.

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I was going to say "Rhodesia", as that what it was before it was gifted to Zanu-PF, but thought that might stir up another robust discussion on here :).

I remember watching a News at Ten broadcast in 1979, just after the right for all to vote came in and I saw an old white Rhodesian lady being interviewed and she cursed the British government and said that they had let the Communists in and the country would be a ruin in 20 years.

She was wrong of course. The country was a ruin within 10 years.

I was only young and I thought, that was a bit harsh of her as everybody deserves the right to vote.

What I didn't know then (and only learned it after I met my wife whose family lived in Zambia for many years), was that the black Africans despise other Africans not from their tribe more than anyone else. Most black Africans weren't over concerned about the white settlers and in Zambia, where my in-laws worked directly for Kenneth Kaunda, Kaunda saw the only way to grow the country was to bring in Europeans to assist.

Ian Smith and Lord Carrington worked together, under pressure form the western international community to do away Rhodesia's form of apartheid. Once white rule finished, the 'international community' moved onto it's next crusade and washed its hands of Zimbabwe.

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Originally Posted by SinceSept1959

Interesting post from HP1862
and thanks for that.
Considering the Net Zero campaign "attacks" on farmers across a variety of fronts , designed to reduce agricultural production , artificial baby milk production might possibly have greater importance in the future.
Not all new mothers are able to breast feed babies naturally either ?

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There is a modus operandi with left-wing governments. They seem to want to embrace higher density living and move everybody into cities from rural areas and then plant trees on land that was once a farm.

I'm not being sarcastic here. Our socialist 'dream' in New Zealand was much further down the track than what Starmer's fledgling dream currently is. Trudeau (in Canada) and Ardern (in New Zealand), both started to attack their farmers later in their tenure. They had no time for farmers as they saw that farming was one of the main causes of global warming, sorry my bad, apocalypticists don't like that term anymore, I meant 'climate change'.

In Canada and New Zealand, this was the beginning of the end for both of them. Farmers are thought of much more highly here than they are in the UK, so I presume Starmer believes he can get away with it much earlier in the piece.