O/T:- ⚠️Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

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Originally Posted by Elite_Pie

I agree it's good to see open debate done in a fairly respectful way, but I'm not sure "so many on this thread actually switching their views and changing their political stance". I think it's more about people not fully understanding or misinterpreting what their political stance actually is. Sometimes a single post seems to lead some to think that has to make you far left or far right. We are probably all closer to the centre than it appears.

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I agree with the above it is generally quite respectful.

Just a question Elite

Which would you prefer ?

The Common Market

or

EU political union

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Originally Posted by forwardmagpie

I agree with the above it is generally quite respectful.

Just a question Elite

Which would you prefer ?

The Common Market

or

EU political union

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Probably something between the two. Being part of a free trading customs union was very beneficial to us, and leaving it has hit us all in the pocket. The EU did many good things, but some of them went a bit too far and it definitely became a cumbersome organisation. I still think we would be better trying to change it from within rather than leaving it.

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Originally Posted by Med Pie

It's also nice to see that some people have learned to reply without the use of sarcasm, some, but not all, must try harder.

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Thank goodness my post commenting on the thread behaviour wasn't in reply to anyone else, so that's a relief eh?

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Originally Posted by Elite_Pie

Probably something between the two. Being part of a free trading customs union was very beneficial to us, and leaving it has hit us all in the pocket. The EU did many good things, but some of them went a bit too far and it definitely became a cumbersome organisation. I still think we would be better trying to change it from within rather than leaving it.

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Without affecting the spirit on harmony on this site I will just say that again Elite you would appear to be sitting in the fence.

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Originally Posted by forwardmagpie

Just a question Elite

Which would you prefer ?

The Common Market

or

EU political union

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I think it is a canard to suggest they are different things. The alignment of rules that the common market can need is not a bright line but a continuum, and the vast majority of things covered by the political union were precisely to make the market more common. Brexit (and especially NI) really made it stark what that trade-off looked like - and it amazed me how many Brexity talking heads still don't understand that, talking about things like "regulatory equivalence" as if that would be in any way attractive to the EU.

There's never been a question of the EU actually becoming a superstate - some did want it, but far from enough for it to have ever been viable. So political union becomes a participatory exercise of the countries within, rather than a layer of its own bureaucracy disconnected from that (even if the Commission sometimes push the boundaries).

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Originally Posted by forwardmagpie

Without affecting the spirit on harmony on this site I will just say that again Elite you would appear to be sitting in the fence.

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I'm not really a fan of extremes, so the fence is where I usually sit.

Often leaning slightly to the left.

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Originally Posted by Elite_Pie

I'm not really a fan of extremes, so the fence is where I usually sit.

Often leaning slightly to the left.

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You learn new things every day, I didn?t know having an opinion rather than fence sitting was now considered extreme.

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Originally Posted by OchPie

I think it is a canard to suggest they are different things. The alignment of rules that the common market can need is not a bright line but a continuum, and the vast majority of things covered by the political union were precisely to make the market more common. Brexit (and especially NI) really made it stark what that trade-off looked like - and it amazed me how many Brexity talking heads still don't understand that, talking about things like "regulatory equivalence" as if that would be in any way attractive to the EU.

There's never been a question of the EU actually becoming a superstate - some did want it, but far from enough for it to have ever been viable. So political union becomes a participatory exercise of the countries within, rather than a layer of its own bureaucracy disconnected from that (even if the Commission sometimes push the boundaries).

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If you think the current EU is not akin to a political union but is an unfounded rumour we will have to disagree.

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Originally Posted by forwardmagpie

If you think the current EU is not akin to a political union but is an unfounded rumour we will have to disagree.

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No, I do think it's a political union, just not a superstate. As I said, I see it as a participatory exercise of the countries within. In other words it's a union of countries with a supporting bureaucracy, rather than a federal union (like the US, or for that matter Germany).

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Originally Posted by OchPie

No, I do think it's a political union, just not a superstate. As I said, I see it as a participatory exercise of the countries within. In other words it's a union of countries with a supporting bureaucracy, rather than a federal union (like the US, or for that matter Germany).

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It could never be a 'superstate' and certainly never a true 'political union', too many dissenting voices, political interests and cultural priorities.

The mention of forming an EU army was probably the nearest we ever got to the suggestion of a superstate but again, so many countries with varying attitudes on almost everything, would see an EU army, overrun before a defensive perimiter had been set, never mind a shot fired.

Whilst the initial aim of the Common market was to reduce bureaucracy, the EU has made a great many things, more cumbersome.