OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

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Originally Posted by MadAmster

It has always been my contention that the Common Market/EU is run BY the French and Germans FOR the French and Germans. I point to the way the EU/CM policies have been far from disadvantageous to both countries, the French especially in the form of grants etc and the Germans in how EU policy seems to help their economy.

The French use the CAP and the CFP to avoid having to invest in innovation. The CAP as it helps thousands of French farmers to, basically, do absolutely nothing but keep on getting their annual subsidy for doing exactly nothing. I would, and so would many EU countries, change the CAP. I would INCREASE the current subsidy but give it a limited life span of between 5 and 10 years. During that time the farmers would be expected to try other uses for the land in order to generate income. Once that period has expired, that's it. If they are still unable to make a living off the use of their land, the subsidies stop, permanently and they can then support themselves which will probably entail their selling the land to someone who will make profitable use of it. The CFP as countries have signed it and then ignore it, catching as much as they want. The French, as with their agriculture, refuse to modernise. A lot of fish gets thrown back into the sea, dead, because they are the wrong type of fish. Dutch fishermen invested in innovation and came up with pulse fishing which, as the name says, sends out a pulse that causes fish to "jump" into their nets. It somehow only gets the fish they want of the right size and species, the nets are above the sea bed so there is no damage to the sea floor as there is with the old fashioned trawl nets as used by the French amongst others. Pulse fishing is better for fish stocks, better for the sea bed. The French managed to get pulse fishing banned........

Who benefitted from the forced selling off of Greek infrastructure such as harbours in order to pay off some of the debt? A debt that increased something like tenfold thanks to the "rescue package". It was German financiers that bought it up on the cheap.

As for individual British politicians, I agree with you, however, as with the CAP, the CFP and other "deals" signed by the UK Government, once signed and accepted the UK sticks to it. Others don't.

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You demonstrate a better informed and more intelligent response as regards the EU than many, MA and I’m not going to argue.

We too have benefited from the grants you speak of but there is much that could be improved about the EU and I have never suggested otherwise.

To come full circle, yet again, though...surely we must all understand that, just as with any other ‘club’, once you leave and start ‘slagging off’ the other members and previous ‘allies’ then you begin to make yourself unpopular.

As a nation we can ill afford to do that. We were a valued member of the EU...one of the biggest ‘players’...far better to remain in then and bring about constructive change than to run off with our tail between our legs, trying only to think of ways to minimise the wholly avoidable damage.

we were indeed "valued" as we were one of a small band of "net payers in", along with the Dutch and Krauts.

Upon refelction, I think we can sum up the EU thus:

As a plan, on paper, it looked like a damned good idea. However, the planners always planned to have it turn into a US of E but they didn't dare say such as they would have been laughed at and out of a job. The problem with good plans on paper is that they get actioned by people and the end product never looks like the original plan. I hope this visual explains what I mean............

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Originally Posted by AdiSalisbury

Disagree, other than when I visited Estonia I've never met any anti English person. Except in England. Lots of English people hate us being English. Fueled by left wing media and Russian propaganda.

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ABSOLUTELY spot on Adi, there are few things that really p*** me off in life, but the unfathomable slagging off of England and all things English by English folk is one, and one I'll take direct action on it when I hear it (ironically I learned to do that from Mrs F, a Scot). As for abroad, I don't have a view on nations I've not visited or only visited as a tourist, but in Spain, Greece, Turkey Italy and Germany, apart from mild amusement at the 'where's my ketchup' brigade, I've never come across any animosity towards English/Brits, apart from when someone has an issue with all foreigners (or life itself). IMO its another fallacy spun by the anti-English English.

The French issue (confirmed my French friends) is not with The English as such, but with the English language, but hey, c'est la vie

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

ABSOLUTELY spot on Adi, there are few things that really p*** me off in life, but the unfathomable slagging off of England and all things English by English folk is one, and one I'll take direct action on it when I hear it (ironically I learned to do that from Mrs F, a Scot). As for abroad, I don't have a view on nations I've not visited or only visited as a tourist, but in Spain, Greece, Turkey Italy and Germany, apart from mild amusement at the 'where's my ketchup' brigade, I've never come across any animosity towards English/Brits, apart from when someone has an issue with all foreigners (or life itself). IMO its another fallacy spun by the anti-English English.

The French issue (confirmed my French friends) is not with The English as such, but with the English language, but hey, c'est la vie

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I honestly have no idea what you and Adi are talking about.
I’ve been embarrassed by a certain type of ‘Englishman abroad’ attitude where a minority seem to believe they’re doing Europeans a favour by refusing to attempt anything other than an ever louder form of English, but who are these ‘English folk slagging off England and all things English’?
Not something I’ve ever come across although anti English hostility from the Scots - and to a lesser extent some Welsh - seems quite commonplace. Some Scots in particular seem particularly keen on keeping the spirit of Bonnie Prince Charlie alive and appear to have never got over Culloden.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

I honestly have no idea what you and Adi are talking about.
I’ve been embarrassed by a certain type of ‘Englishman abroad’ attitude where a minority seem to believe they’re doing Europeans a favour by refusing to attempt anything other than an ever louder form of English, but who are these ‘English folk slagging off England and all things English’?
Not something I’ve ever come across although anti English hostility from the Scots - and to a lesser extent some Welsh - seems quite commonplace. Some Scots in particular seem particularly keen on keeping the spirit of Bonnie Prince Charlie alive and appear to have never got over Culloden.

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They never mention Culloden.
They always rant on about Bannockburn.

(I've got jock relatives, before you start)

Whilst on the nationalistic front. The Jocks are a very proud folk and people take great delight in their kilts/bagpipes/tartan heritage.
So much so, that the SNP is dominant in Scotland.

Funny how anything England flag related is viewed as racist and right wing by many, including our own.
Perhaps not everyone is aware of SNP history and would folks be so fine with them in power?

http://i67.tinypic.com/mt5dg6.jpg

‘Funny how anything England flag related is viewed as racist and right wing related by many, including our own’.

Sadly, isn’t that because both the English flag and the Union Jack have been ‘hijacked’ by football hooligans and right wing extremists such as the NF and the BNP over the last fifty years?

I remember being healthily proud of the England flag in the sixties...I tend to treat it with more suspicion on occasions nowadays.

Shakespeare (allegedly) wrote "Cry God for Harry, England, and Saint George!' - Henry V, Act III,".

I don't believe in God.

Harry has gone back to Liverpool.

England is going (some would say has gone) to the dogs.

St George is a myth so no wonder he's cross.

I honestly can't think of any other nation, anywhere, where the nationals get villified for flying the flag, be that the SGC or the Union flag that the English fly. A ridiculous state of affairs IMO.

I tend to agree with you there RA, the England and Union flags have been hijacked by what might be broadly described as undesirables. But is that any reason not to remain proud of your country and its rich heritage: forget the symbols, look at the achievements? Britain had its finest hour on the world stage (although not all would agree that the age of empire was not without moral questionability!) when a united nation from 1701 and 1922: since when we have become increasingly sidelined, especially post 1945, by the the new empires of USA and USSR and latterly the Chinese financial empire.

Its just a matter of evolution, we as a nation are no longer that important on the world stage, same with the French, historically powerhouses but now sidelined and replaced. Rather like the Greeks by the Romans etc. Its the way of things, civilisations come and go in significance.

I'm not quite sure what point I am trying to make here other than to say that the hijacking of a symbol should not prevent the respect for the history behind it. Too many people still think we are of international significance still, wrongly in my view, apart from being one of the nuclear powers; equally some people (you included sometimes) seem to be an apologist for the country at every opportunity.

Our history is littered with good (exploration, inventors, scientists etc) and bad (slave trade, mineral exploitation etc). We seem to have become apologists for the latter without getting any credit for the former. We are not responsible for the actions of our past countrymen, any more than today's Italians are responsible for the slavery during the Roman imperial era, the slaughter of people during "the games" and so on.

I'm still rambling, so I'll stop here :-)