I don't know if I live in a nice lovely place in the country like Ramanag..... I don't know where Ramanag is. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds
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I don't know if I live in a nice lovely place in the country like Ramanag..... I don't know where Ramanag is. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds
It's in Karnataka, India
Okay...so let’s abandon all the ffs, anger and name calling and try and introduce some objectivity.Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryRam
Below are the major reasons, briefly put, for me wanting to remain in the EU.
1. Employment. Approx 2.5 million people are employed in the UK as a direct consequence of EU trade. That’s around 10% of people in work in the UK. We can’t afford the consequence of losing those jobs.
2. Trade. The EU accounts for about 50% of our exports. Membership gives us the right to trade freely with a market of 500 million people throughout Europe. Multi nationals build factories in this country precisely because of the access we have. Why would we turn our back on all this?
3. Economy. The Treasury has predicted a fall of 6% in GDP, an 18% fall in house prices (mixed blessing I concede), and a very significant increase in the cost of living if and when we leave.
4. Rights. Amongst all the red tape arguments let’s not forget...the EU has done more than any UK Government to establish equal pay conditions, maternity rights, child care rights and health and safety entitlements.
5. Security. With one or two (Balkan/Irish) exceptions a previously ‘explosive’ continent has experienced its longest period of continuous peace in history since 1945. This is in part due to the establishment of the Common Market/EEC/EU because basically countries don’t tend to go to war with trading partners. Sharing intelligence, policing each other’s borders and the establishment of the European Arrest Warrant also appear to be good and beneficial arrangements to me.
6. Holidays. Leaving the EU will increase the cost of holidays. Air fares and the cost of holiday insurance will rise. There will be no reciprocal health care arrangements and the £ is likely to fall - as it did drastically and dramatically immediately after the Referendum - making everything more expensive. In addition, driving in Europe will become a whole lot more complicated.
7. Changes are necessary within the EU...you can only bring about change within an organisation by being a part of it. By leaving we lose all control over how the EU progresses.
Above are just a few of the more pressing reasons for why I want to Remain but if you don’t believe me then here is a list of others opposed to Brexit.
Governor of the Bank of England, Institute for Fiscal Studies, CBI, Theresa May (originally), Jeremy Hunt (originally), Chief Execs of M&S, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, and IBM, the leaders of the Lib Dems, Green Party, SNP and Plaid Cymru, Martin Lewis, Chief Exec of the NHS, Director General of the WTO, Greenpeace, Director of Europol.
I suspect they know a great deal more than any of us but I’ve at least tried to give my objective layman’s view of reasons for staying.
Hopefully the more vociferous Brexiteers on here - MoP, Angry, Adi and Tricky - might give their own reasons for leaving while trying to be equally objective.
That way the ‘debate’ might just progress beyond the level of insults and cheap shots.
Geoff I make that 4,670 miles are you close neighboursQuote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone
Parkstone is near Bournemouth, so I doubt it 😏
Ramanag: your points all have validity although the more expensive holiday one is a bit of a reach. If less people could afford to go to Spain etc, it would be good for the domestic tourism of the South Coast etc!!
I'm sure brexiteers could dredge up an equally impressive list of "figures" who are pro Brexit, but I will leave that to the more passionate leavers.
I think the problem I (and many others) have with the EU does not revolve around those aspects you note, but rather the ways they is achieved. The obvious one being that your typical leaver resents the freedom of movement of labour that is inherent in free trade. There is a natural drift of labour towards the stronger economies, especially at the unskilled / low skilled end of the spectrum. This pressurises resources and infrastructure etc etc, I won't expand this further as it is a self evident truth.
In my view, everything you espouse represent desirable ends, the problem is that the EU don't want to stop there. An economic union is an advantage to all, stretching it towards a political union for me is a step too far without massive changes in accountability and the democratic nature of thee institutions. The EU structure is the inverse of the UK structure - the unelected commission rules the roost: a body that is neither voted in by the people nor accountable to it.
This body is leading the thrust towards greater political union, common currencies, taxes, army etc etc. With the diverse group of countries in the EU this is doomed to failure as, in particular, different attitudes exist regarding the concept of, and payment of, tax.
We probably may be guilty of throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but it's some pretty rancid bathwater.
With respect, seriously, GP...you aren’t really the ‘audience’. You have a balanced, if at times mischievous, view of the EU and Brexit. You invariably make your case well and I do accept most of the criticisms you offer above of the EU.
Like Andy and ‘Amster you seem to me to fall into the category of being aware of the shortcomings of the EU but unconvinced that Brexit, especially in a ‘hard’/no deal form, is the answer.
That though is not really the point. Along with Swale and one or two occasional others I am probably the most committed Remainer on the forum. I have stated my case which contains little of your greater economic expertise but is a relatively intelligent layman’s case.
Rather than just pick holes in my reasoning or let things degenerate into schoolyard squabbles I’d just be interested to hear the reasoning behind those who are determined to leave.
There seems little doubt to me, and the very significant others I’ve mentioned, that Brexit is going to make us all worse off for a considerable period of time. I’ve given my reasons why...be interested in a proper alternative response which actually justifies the ‘Leave’ stance from anyone of those who continue to advocate it.
My post was about Swaledale calling Tricky a neo facist.. But if you want to make it about you, okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by ramAnag
There is very little fact in your long and boring post. I am sure I have seen it at least 20 times before. It’s been addressed about 100 times.
I gave up at point 1 as it seems you think even when we leave we will never trade with an EU company ever again.. The is so much conjecture in there, expensive holidays, more expensive insurance,
We’re all doomed. Come to London, even with Brexit looming the bloody place Is booming.. New buildings shooting up everywhere. Yet you tell me the end of the world is 31-10-19.
I’m all for cheap shots by the way, you’re an easy target. But neo facist ffs.. The guy has lost the plot and is now quite frankly embarrassing.. Here I am siding with a Forest fan, the quicker we leave and get back to having nothing in common the better.
‘Make it all about me’? What are you talking about?
You’re the one who’s reappeared after months of no comment moaning about the fact that there’s still a Brexit thread, the very thread that has generated over 4500 responses.
Then when an attempt is made to have some objective, rather than childlike tit for tat, discussion about the pros and cons of Brexit your default position is to immediately start becoming abusive.
You used to be a decent poster Angry, I doubt that you and I would agree about very much - from Keogh to politics - but that, to an extent, is the point of a forum.
My take on things may be right or wrong...unfortunately no one knows your reasons for wanting to remain because having, in your own words, ‘given up at point 1’ your post simply descended into an all too typical child like, name calling little bully boy rant.
I'm not too sure Angry want to remain, rA