OT. Shamima Begum

You've missed my point entirely.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

I think you used the phrase ‘blinkered apologist’ to my initial response Andy and now you seem to be directing it at Swale.
It would be so easy to say nothing in the face of the populist nonsense which has been written about this girl but unfortunately, as is constantly illustrated on the Brexit thread, populism...i.e. unthinking, juvenile, knee jerk reaction seems to be the order of the day.

To be clear...I, and I suspect Swale, abhor terrorism and ISIS. I also think the girl acted incredibly stupidly and condemn her parents for feeling the need to now tell the British Government how to react when they failed to control their daughter in the first place.
Having said that...she was fifteen when she left and was effectively ‘groomed’ in much the same way as others who generate far greater sympathy have been.
I’m not sure how many of us would want to be judged on the basis of the behaviour of our teenage selves...but I am sure I expect our politicians, and frankly you too Andy, to react in a more adult, joined up, rational and less populist manner.

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I guess our respective insults make us even

You wrote elsewhere about moral complexity and morality is one of the complexities at play. Looking at the world at a micro level, SB in Syria is better for me and my loved ones than SB in UK. That's not complex, and its not populist, its just risk-averse. What's populist is the govt's stripping of nationality, which is just playing back the desires of the majority of the plebicite for the sake of hoovering up some votes down the line

I'd stick her up against a wall. Solve the problem of what yo do with her I reckon.

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

I guess our respective insults make us even

You wrote elsewhere about moral complexity and morality is one of the complexities at play. Looking at the world at a micro level, SB in Syria is better for me and my loved ones than SB in UK. That's not complex, and its not populist, its just risk-averse. What's populist is the govt's stripping of nationality, which is just playing back the desires of the majority of the plebicite for the sake of hoovering up some votes down the line

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I’m sorry Andy...I didn’t intend to be insulting towards you and would never go out of my way to be so. We don’t regularly see eye to eye politically but I believe we can always discuss things intelligently.
I recognise your point about SB as you appear to recognise mine about the way in which the Home Secretary and the Government in general are playing the populist card in order to, in your own words, ‘hoover up some votes down the line’.
Surely though we also have to recognise that if Britain is to retain its rapidly decreasing status in the World it has to be seen to be abiding by the rules of international law and we also have to acknowledge that terrorism is a product of people feeling alienated, dispossessed and disenfranchised. The reaction towards SB is at present only likely to foster further resentment and create greater tensions further down the line imo.

Tell you what, rA, I would support your contention that we should respect international law if you demonstrate to everyone how her adopted nation of ISIS have conformed with it.

But in practice, if not in law, surely she has lost her own right to citizenship by her own actions of joining an army fighting against her country of birth. That we almost certainly will be unlikely to be able to prove specific killings, bombings etc to her door does nor absolve her.

Unfortunately her profile as a traitor is not as easy to prove as it was, say, for William Joyce, who was hung in British courts for that crime after WW2, despite having taken German nationality.

This is also true of every other ISIS volunteer that joined up and survived.

It is also intriguing to note that the allegations of "grooming" have only been raised now she, unrepentant, wants to "come home". Convenient that isn't it.

She betrayed her country of birth.........she comitted treason and since the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 became*law, the maximum sentence for treason*in the*UK*has been life imprisonment, if our snowflake politicians allow her back she'll either be lynched out in the streets or in prison, she'll be safer in Syria quite frankly

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Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone

Tell you what, rA, I would support your contention that we should respect international law if you demonstrate to everyone how her adopted nation of ISIS have conformed with it.

But in practice, if not in law, surely she has lost her own right to citizenship by her own actions of joining an army fighting against her country of birth. That we almost certainly will be unlikely to be able to prove specific killings, bombings etc to her door does nor absolve her.

Unfortunately her profile as a traitor is not as easy to prove as it was, say, for William Joyce, who was hung in British courts for that crime after WW2, despite having taken German nationality.

This is also true of every other ISIS volunteer that joined up and survived.

It is also intriguing to note that the allegations of "grooming" have only been raised now she, unrepentant, wants to "come home". Convenient that isn't it.

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Little point in me continuing with this really when virtually everyone on here, even you, are happy to play judge and jury.
According to Stenson her family are more than complicit in what she’s done, while according to mista, her father at least is critical and contrite.

None of us know the truth and I, like all of you, utterly despise what she has done and the organisation she joined.

OTR would have her shot and even the normally mild mannered Adi is clearly enraged. I’m currently many thousands of miles away and possibly a little out of the loop, but for me we have to remember three things...
i) She was a ****** up fifteen year old when she left.
ii) She remains a British citizen.
iii) As as an advanced and civilised country, GP we should never justify our behaviour by judging it alongside the standards set by ISIS.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Little point in me continuing with this really when virtually everyone on here, even you, are happy to play judge and jury.
According to Stenson her family are more than complicit in what she’s done, while according to mista, her father at least is critical and contrite.

None of us know the truth and I, like all of you, utterly despise what she has done and the organisation she joined.

OTR would have her shot and even the normally mild mannered Adi is clearly enraged. I’m currently many thousands of miles away and possibly a little out of the loop, but for me we have to remember three things...
i) She was a ****** up fifteen year old when she left.
ii) She remains a British citizen.
iii) As as an advanced and civilised country, GP we should never justify our behaviour by judging it alongside the standards set by ISIS.

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RA you baffle you write " I utterly despise what she has done and the organisation she has joined" But you are condemning every body who says she shouldn't return There was an online petition calling for her not to be allowed back within 24hours 665,000 had signed it Even allowing for the nutters that's a lot of people You need to join my wife she forgives anybody anything She's the original snowflake

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

According to Stenson her family are more than complicit in what she’s done, while according to mista, her father at least is critical and contrite.

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As far as my research on this is concerned, both are true. If she and her family are capable of supporting an organisation or movement which throws gays off buildings, you must agree that they would consider altering their public stance and the truth in general as a mere trifle.

I don't believe she was naive, theres evidence of her watching beheadings on the internet, she said she got a kick from it, she spent the best part of 3 pregnancies in a war zone where she lost 2 of her babies, she regularly watched public executions over there, she had ample time and opportunity to realise her 'MISTAKE' but she stayed long enough to get pregnant 3 times.

Fine bring her back but put her up in front of a jury and let them decide, the fact is naive or not she comitted treason and should be sentenced to life in prison and not to be view as an innocent kid who made the wrong choice and be let out to roam free amongst us, she can be a british citizen in prison