OT Hamilton

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

Not really sure I agree with that one either, check out many rags to riches stories inc Mansell's

If you argue that its not a sport because it relies on an outside entity (ie the car) you might have a point

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Of course its a sport.
It has its grass roots levels.
Its competition grading
Spectators and followers.
Anyone can and probably has been karting. Its where it starts all the way up to F1

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

Not really sure I agree with that one either, check out many rags to riches stories inc Mansell's

If you argue that its not a sport because it relies on an outside entity (ie the car) you might have a point

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.......but that then rules out skiing, all equestrian sports, pole vault, fencing, (motor)cycling, rowing, yachting, shooting and even bloody rhythmic gymnastics - although that does deserve quashing!

"Many" rags to riches? Some perhaps, but it is hardly "inclusive" to use the word of the past decade. How many drivers seats are sold to the driver with the largest sponsorship budget they can bring? For every Mansell I'll wager we could find 10 Perez, Massa and countless back markers in the "have not" car pool etc who are given a seat in exchange for millions

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

If you argue that its not a sport because it relies on an outside entity (ie the car) you might have a point

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I’d say he certainly has a point.

Can’t see how cricket isn’t a ‘team game’, AF. Clearly different roles within the team require different skills...but that’s the same in football and rugby too. No good asking a typical prop to sidestep and sprint twenty five metres to the line and equally little point in asking a typical scrum half to do something more strength than skill reliant...but in all three cases you have players using their specific individual sporting skills for the good of the whole (team).
I’m sure those involved in F1 ‘teams’ are indispensable too but only the drivers can be described as sportsmen/women can’t they?

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

I’d say he certainly has a point.

Can’t see how cricket isn’t a ‘team game’, AF. Clearly different roles within the team require different skills...but that’s the same in football and rugby too. No good asking a typical prop to sidestep and sprint twenty five metres to the line and equally little point in asking a typical scrum half to do something more strength than skill reliant...but in all three cases you have players using their specific individual sporting skills for the good of the whole (team).
I’m sure those involved in F1 ‘teams’ are indispensable too but only the drivers can be described as sportsmen/women can’t they?

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I’ll respectfully beg to differ on both points

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

IMO it was incompetence driven by a desire to provide a 'show'

The various TV interviews this am haven't helped as none got to the heart of the issue

The act of stopping for new tyres under safety car conditions has been part of F1 since safety cars were introduced in 1983. Its a bit of an arcane rule that allows it but its well understood by teams and fans, and accepted that it proffers a potential advantage (or no-one would do it). TBH its given Hamilton an advantage MANY times so from that point of view its tough titty Lewis, the dice rolled for Max this time

HOWEVER, there are two relevant rules regarding the resumption of racing at the end of a safety car period -

Rule 1: ALL lapped cars MUST overtake the leader (sometimes called 'unlapping themselves') in order to get out of the leading group's way, and this rule applies wherever such cars are in the train of cars behind the safety car and leader. What happened yesterday was that only the cars between Hamilton and Verstappen were allowed through, not those further back in the pack. So, IMO Mercedes have a good case for saying that the race was started before the rules allow ALTHOUGH the effect of allowing other lapped cars to unlap themselves would have only delayed the (correct) start of the race by a few seconds (However, see rule 2)

Rule 2: After the last lapped car has unlapped itself, the safety car MUST remain in situ for a full lap before pulling over and allowing the race proper to start. This allows the recently unlapped cars to drive away at racing speeds and again get out of the way (ie well ahead of on the track) the leading group. What happened yesterday was that the safety car only stayed in situ for a quarter of a lap before pulling over - if it had waited the full lap, there would have been no legitimate opportunity for Verstappen to overtake. So again IMO Mercedes have a good case for saying the race started before the rules allow

HOWEVER there is a third rule which, applies (I paraphrase) 'the race director can ignore all other rules and do whatever he wants' and I think that was what FIA relied on yesterday. I also think Merc will argue that that's an onerous rule (similar to onerous contract terms in contract law)

Its a huge **** up and I mentioned earlier that there IS a precedent in US roundy roundy racing, the 1981 Indy 500, and that took from May to October to resolve, in the courts. That actually led indirectly to the downfall of the US regulators, USAC, I think FIA are too powerful for that to happen

All the above may have clarified but I bet it hasn't made the sport any more appealling!

Note MA sorry for duplication our posts crossed and your narrative regarding unlapped cars and mine agree

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Thanks, that is actually enlightening. So we have yet another body supposedly overseeing a sport which seems to be unfit for purpose?

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Originally Posted by swaledale

Thanks, that is actually enlightening. So we have yet another body supposedly overseeing a sport which seems to be unfit for purpose?

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Thanks and not quite.

F1 races are officiated by a Race Director (footy equiv: Ref), Deputy director (equiv: Linesman/Fourth Official) and race stewards (similar to the backroom boys who administer VAR but with the added power that they don't just judge on indescretions but also issue some sanctions). It used to work well but as in many sports its been stretched to its limits by micro-analysis of its every decision in real time by the TV channels, in the specialist and now general media

Race director for many years was a jolly old chap called Charlie Whiting, knowledgeable, respected throughout and often a calming influence in a high pressure environment. Regretably the poor fellah died early 2019, and his deputy, Michael Masi, was promoted

In the last few races Masi (and the stewards to be fair to him) has been struggling with the number of marginal calls during races, and on Sunday he simply 'lost the plot', either in a misguided attempt to 'create a race', because the situation simply got to much for him, or because one of the teams exerted undue pressure on him - Masi has been accused, and some audio evidence supports this, of being too easy to manipulate by teams pleading their cases. imagine a player being sent off, a manager kicking off about it and a ref changing his mind? No, neither can I, but thats whats been creeping into F1

Unlike 80's USA racing, where the whole governing body (USAC) were seen as corrupt, incompetent and stuck in the 50s, FIA itself is vastly improved over the past decades (and too powerful to topple anyway), this comes down I'm afraid to someone being overpromoted into a role he wasn't quite up to when the chips were down. IMO he will be removed from his post in due course

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

Thanks and not quite.

F1 races are officiated by a Race Director (footy equiv: Ref), Deputy director (equiv: Linesman/Fourth Official) and race stewards (similar to the backroom boys who administer VAR but with the added power that they don't just judge on indescretions but also issue some sanctions). It used to work well but as in many sports its been stretched to its limits by micro-analysis of its every decision in real time by the TV channels, in the specialist and now general media

Race director for many years was a jolly old chap called Charlie Whiting, knowledgeable, respected throughout and often a calming influence in a high pressure environment. Regretably the poor fellah died early 2019, and his deputy, Michael Masi, was promoted

In the last few races Masi (and the stewards to be fair to him) has been struggling with the number of marginal calls during races, and on Sunday he simply 'lost the plot', either in a misguided attempt to 'create a race', because the situation simply got to much for him, or because one of the teams exerted undue pressure on him - Masi has been accused, and some audio evidence supports this, of being too easy to manipulate by teams pleading their cases. imagine a player being sent off, a manager kicking off about it and a ref changing his mind? No, neither can I, but thats whats been creeping into F1

Unlike 80's USA racing, where the whole governing body (USAC) were seen as corrupt, incompetent and stuck in the 50s, FIA itself is vastly improved over the past decades (and too powerful to topple anyway), this comes down I'm afraid to someone being overpromoted into a role he wasn't quite up to when the chips were down. IMO he will be removed from his post in due course

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Ah that makes sense.