Matchday thread: Rams v Sheffield Utd

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Originally Posted by swaledale

Well I still think your being harsh, if one makes allowances for the financial restrictions imposed by the EFL until summer 2024 and the fact he got automatic promotion from L1 with them then he rates at least a 7.5 or 8. Every transfer is a gamble an injury or loss of form can happen and lets face it compared to other derby managers, have Warne's acquisitions really been that bad?

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Players we've paid for, he has a good track record, IMO. Only CBT, who arrived injured and has stayed that way for most of his time at the club, has been a failure. JWZ, Adams and Kenzo are all positives. Salvesen has had a good start to his Derby career but too early to say definitively. Clarke is a known quantity in a Derby short and I'm sure we're all reasonably happy with him arriving. Langas is, for me at any rate, an unknown quantity but he's a full international at 23 so he must have something about him.

When it comes to the freebies, they're hit and miss with any club/manager. We recruited good L1 standard players to get out of L1. We then had little money to recruit Champ standard players for this season and, unfortunately, most of those L1 standard players have shown they can't match the standard required for the Champ. Those who have? Nyambe, Wilson and the rest haven't. Ward could, possibly, but he's spent more time on the physio's table than he has on the grass.

In short, PW has a good record on players he's paid for. The freebies proved their L1 worth but most fail to be Championship players.

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Originally Posted by swaledale

Well I still think your being harsh, if one makes allowances for the financial restrictions imposed by the EFL until summer 2024 and the fact he got automatic promotion from L1 with them then he rates at least a 7.5 or 8. Every transfer is a gamble an injury or loss of form can happen and lets face it compared to other derby managers, have Warne's acquisitions really been that bad?

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Maybe we’re a case of six of one and half a dozen of the other, Swale. I think his track record in the market is mixed at best.
He’s unearthed a couple of diamonds and an additional five or six decent, if all too often injury prone, players imo.
He’s strangely yet to find a leader and our most regular captains over the last two seasons - Hourihane, NML, Cashin and Forsyth - have all been players he inherited.

On the debit side, if I was Mr. Clowes, I would have been seriously disappointed at the money wasted on, off the top of my head, Ward, CBT, Washington, Chirewa, Bradley, John-Jules, Fornah, Waghorn and Springett.

Of the side that got promoted I think the spine of that side - Wildsmith, Cashin, NML and Collins led by Hourihane - was made up of inherited players, although I accept that Nelson, Adams and Nyambe played equally crucial roles.

The jury is obviously out on at least three of the latest four signings. He’s been unfortunate in that those signings have suddenly been driven by injuries. Who’d have thought, a month ago for instance, that Cashin and Nelson would have no further part to play for us.
If the new signings perform as well as we expect and keep us up then all credit to PW. Here’s hoping. What’s done is done and although I doubt the improvement will begin at Norwich, it really must against Oxford.

What's with your hang up about inherited players? He still has to manage them successfully regardless of how acquired. He is not to be measured solely on his buying and selling - I think we've established elsethread that recruitment is a combined effort of a number of people including the manager.

To judge his success solely on who he has bought is naive in the extreme. Not unlike measuring your success as a teacher based solely on the pens and paper the school bought 😃

Would you say Slot has failed at Liverpool because his probable title winning team was inherited from Klopp?

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Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone

What's with your hang up about inherited players? He still has to manage them successfully regardless of how acquired. He is not to be measured solely on his buying and selling - I think we've established elsethread that recruitment is a combined effort of a number of people including the manager.

To judge his success solely on who he has bought is naive in the extreme. Not unlike measuring your success as a teacher based solely on the pens and paper the school bought ��

Would you say Slot has failed at Liverpool because his probable title winning team was inherited from Klopp?

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List, roles, suggestions, recruitment team, bean counters, agreement DCFC/club, agreement DCFC/player.... at this point PW gets a video chat with said player.

I've posted it before and I'll no doubt post it again. Incoming players are maybe 20% the responsibility of the manager or, in our case, head coach.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Maybe we?re a case of six of one and half a dozen of the other, Swale. I think his track record in the market is mixed at best.
He?s unearthed a couple of diamonds and an additional five or six decent, if all too often injury prone, players imo.
He?s strangely yet to find a leader and our most regular captains over the last two seasons - Hourihane, NML, Cashin and Forsyth - have all been players he inherited.

On the debit side, if I was Mr. Clowes, I would have been seriously disappointed at the money wasted on, off the top of my head, Ward, CBT, Washington, Chirewa, Bradley, John-Jules, Fornah, Waghorn and Springett.

Of the side that got promoted I think the spine of that side - Wildsmith, Cashin, NML and Collins led by Hourihane - was made up of inherited players, although I accept that Nelson, Adams and Nyambe played equally crucial roles.

The jury is obviously out on at least three of the latest four signings. He?s been unfortunate in that those signings have suddenly been driven by injuries. Who?d have thought, a month ago for instance, that Cashin and Nelson would have no further part to play for us.
If the new signings perform as well as we expect and keep us up then all credit to PW. Here?s hoping. What?s done is done and although I doubt the improvement will begin at Norwich, it really must against Oxford.

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AS is every manager's! I mean Pep Guardiola has had his share of expensive flops, the difference is he paid ?40 million plus for some of them and had a wider range of options both domestic and continental to choose from. You seem to ignore the restrictions under which Warne and the Derby team were recruiting players until last summer. Just because Derby play in front of 27,000+ every week doesn't mean a player is going to come to the club when other clubs can offer ?5-10K more in wages and a realistic opportunity of promotion.

As GP has said quite rightly, is Slot not going to get the credit if Liverpool win the PL just because his squad is basically that built by Klopp?

You say, "On the debit side, if I was Mr. Clowes, I would have been seriously disappointed at the money wasted on, off the top of my head, Ward, CBT, Washington, Chirewa, Bradley, John-Jules, Fornah, Waghorn and Springett."

Two points, Ward and CBT were good players for their respective clubs at L1 level, injury seems to have stopped them doing the same for Derby, no manager/coach can legislate for that.

Washington was a reasonable L1 player we needed strikers, they are the most expensive and difficult to get, he played his part in the promotion from L1, obvs not Champ level.

Chirewa, John-Jules and Springett were loans that didn't work out, it happens hardly wasted many thousands on them. John-Jules had massive potential, but clearly has a problem with injuries.

Bradley served his purpose as a back up to the other CB.s he was a good L1 player, filled in when required, can't see him as a waste of money.

Waghorn was a free agent, who up until his injury played 27 times and scored 7 goals and contributed to the cause, I said at the time wouldn't be my choice if others were available but given we were scraping around for players we could afford he was hardly a failure.

Nyambe was one picked up free out of contract who was without a club, he has proven to be a good acquisition, when one is picking these players up its always a gamble, some work others don't. I mean if a club like Manchester City with its vast resources and an army of scouts, recruitment analysists and a top manager cant get it right on every transfer, its a bit over the top to expect Warne, with very limited resources to be able to do so.

There is every chance that Derby could get a result at Norwich, on form they can be very good, but they are inconsistent. anything is possible though Norwich are favourites clearly. COYR!

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Originally Posted by MadAmster

List, roles, suggestions, recruitment team, bean counters, agreement DCFC/club, agreement DCFC/player.... at this point PW gets a video chat with said player.

I've posted it before and I'll no doubt post it again. Incoming players are maybe 20% the responsibility of the manager or, in our case, head coach.

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Add to that the budget, Warne needs to build a team within a budget, he can't break the salary limit for one very good player and leave the squad short. If a player he wants, requires ?2-5K over what can be offered he can't sign him, in the meantime option 2 might have signed for another club.

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Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone

What's with your hang up about inherited players? He still has to manage them successfully regardless of how acquired. He is not to be measured solely on his buying and selling - I think we've established elsethread that recruitment is a combined effort of a number of people including the manager.

To judge his success solely on who he has bought is naive in the extreme. Not unlike measuring your success as a teacher based solely on the pens and paper the school bought ��

Would you say Slot has failed at Liverpool because his probable title winning team was inherited from Klopp?

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It’s not a ‘hang up’ it’s simply an observation and I’ve never attempted to judge success solely on who he has brought in. The discussion was about Warne’s signings. The point was that, imo, they’ve been very mixed and he owes a lot of last year’s success to previous acquisitions rather more than his own additions.

On the subject of Liverpool, I’d say Slot is hugely indebted to Klopp but deserves great credit for his fine tuning in his first season. Whether they win the title or not remains to be seen.

Anyway, we all want the same, so good luck to PW, lay off Clowes (not you GP) and, to echo Swale, COYR.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

It?s not a ?hang up? it?s simply an observation and I?ve never attempted to judge success solely on who he has brought in. The discussion was about Warne?s signings. The point was that, imo, they?ve been very mixed and he owes a lot of last year?s success to previous acquisitions rather more than his own additions.

On the subject of Liverpool, I?d say Slot is hugely indebted to Klopp but deserves great credit for his fine tuning in his first season. Whether they win the title or not remains to be seen.

Anyway, we all want the same, so good luck to PW, lay off Clowes (not you GP) and, to echo Swale, COYR.

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You are missing one point, its the manager/head coach in charge that ultimately is responsible for a teams success or failure. Ironic really, because if you'd focussed on Warnes tactics, his tendency to chop and change formations, not play a player in their strongest position you'd be justified in that criticism. Obviously as I've said we fans are not privy to Warne's thinking, the fitness and form of individual players and perhaps need to caveat any critique by recognising he probably hasn't yet got the squad he would like.

Similarly, whilst recognising that he has to date failed to keep a team in the championship after promotion, it was Rotherham who haven't the resources to strengthen the squad to be competitive at this level.

I think some good acquisitions have been made, now with some better luck on the injury front and Warne, taking note of MA's thoughts on a back 4, hopefully we might move forward.

Give Cooper a ring, you know you want to .

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Originally Posted by swaledale

You are missing one point, its the manager/head coach in charge that ultimately is responsible for a teams success or failure. Ironic really, because if you'd focussed on Warnes tactics, his tendency to chop and change formations, not play a player in their strongest position you'd be justified in that criticism. Obviously as I've said we fans are not privy to Warne's thinking, the fitness and form of individual players and perhaps need to caveat any critique by recognising he probably hasn't yet got the squad he would like.

Similarly, whilst recognising that he has to date failed to keep a team in the championship after promotion, it was Rotherham who haven't the resources to strengthen the squad to be competitive at this level.

I think some good acquisitions have been made, now with some better luck on the injury front and Warne, taking note of MA's thoughts on a back 4, hopefully we might move forward.

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Not entirely sure of your point, Swale.

Mine was that his transfer dealings haven’t been as impressive as we hoped and I pointed to nine or ten signings who haven’t, imo, been value for money at a time when we’ve needed to make every penny count.

You now seem to be criticising his tactics including his formations. I agree with some of what you say and especially with MA’s thoughts on our defensive formation, but I’ve steered clear of commenting too much on the basis of, as you suggest, not being privy to PW’s thinking etc.

I don’t disagree that some good acquisitions have been made, but imo they’re a minority. I’m just not sure now, if my observations about signings are true, yours about chopping and changing and playing players out of position are accurate and MA’s observations about formation are well founded, how long he’s got before he’s held accountable for the position we find ourselves in.