Matchday thread: Rams v Sheffield Utd

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Not entirely sure of your point, Swale.

Mine was that his transfer dealings haven’t been as impressive as we hoped and I pointed to nine or ten signings who haven’t, imo, been value for money at a time when we’ve needed to make every penny count.

You now seem to be criticising his tactics including his formations. I agree with some of what you say and especially with MA’s thoughts on our defensive formation, but I’ve steered clear of commenting too much on the basis of, as you suggest, not being privy to PW’s thinking etc.

I don’t disagree that some good acquisitions have been made, but imo they’re a minority. I’m just not sure now, if my observations about signings are true, yours about chopping and changing and playing players out of position are accurate and MA’s observations about formation are well founded, how long he’s got before he’s held accountable for the position we find ourselves in.

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I think he's got just under 1.5 seasons to turn things around. For no other reason that David Clowes isn't going to sack him, IMO.

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Originally Posted by MadAmster

I think he's got just under 1.5 seasons to turn things around. For no other reason that David Clowes isn't going to sack him, IMO.

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I agree, he's invested too much (both money and personal commitment) into Warne. He's not going to waiver because we are wobbling as he probably isn't convinced that a change of manager is the way forward and I am sure that he has included relegation as a possibility in his thinking. Obviously, like all of us, he hopes that that can be avoided and I think his release of funds in the transfer window shows that he thinks Warne can turn it around.

I hope he's right if only because of what he did for the club in the time of its greatest need. Unfortunately, the atmosphere at PP could and probably will turn unpleasant if results continue in their current vein.
Let's be honest Rams fans seem to have developed some sense of entitlement believing that we have some divine right to be at least challenging for promo to, if not in, the PL. They should remember recent past events and realise that, if their miniscule brains are capable of logical thought, we are still recovering from near extinction. However, that ain't going to happen so Mr Clowes is now reliant on Warne to bring home the bacon and justify his support.

Personally, I'm doubtful it can be turned around. Don't forget though, there's always next season and that looked unlikely at one point after the MM debacle!

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Originally Posted by macstheman

I agree, he's invested too much (both money and personal commitment) into Warne. He's not going to waiver because we are wobbling as he probably isn't convinced that a change of manager is the way forward and I am sure that he has included relegation as a possibility in his thinking. Obviously, like all of us, he hopes that that can be avoided and I think his release of funds in the transfer window shows that he thinks Warne can turn it around.

I hope he's right if only because of what he did for the club in the time of its greatest need. Unfortunately, the atmosphere at PP could and probably will turn unpleasant if results continue in their current vein.
Let's be honest Rams fans seem to have developed some sense of entitlement believing that we have some divine right to be at least challenging for promo to, if not in, the PL. They should remember recent past events and realise that, if their miniscule brains are capable of logical thought, we are still recovering from near extinction. However, that ain't going to happen so Mr Clowes is now reliant on Warne to bring home the bacon and justify his support.

Personally, I'm doubtful it can be turned around. Don't forget though, there's always next season and that looked unlikely at one point after the MM debacle!

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Agree re: fans. 6 months ago it was "survival would be great". Now, it seems the fact that we had a L1 squad on July 1st, not much money to get Champ level players in and still, up to last week, had about 20% of the squad of Champ level. We might now be up to 1/3. The rest are L1 level and some of them are shadows of their former selves.

You can't level that at PW. He isn't the one who sources players. He isn't the one who negotiates fees and wages. Once the deal is all but finalised, he has a (video) chat with the player and has the final say. Doesn't stop the mindless from having a go at him because HE has "faied" in the transfer window.

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Originally Posted by macstheman

I agree, he's invested too much (both money and personal commitment) into Warne. He's not going to waiver because we are wobbling as he probably isn't convinced that a change of manager is the way forward and I am sure that he has included relegation as a possibility in his thinking. Obviously, like all of us, he hopes that that can be avoided and I think his release of funds in the transfer window shows that he thinks Warne can turn it around.

I hope he's right if only because of what he did for the club in the time of its greatest need. Unfortunately, the atmosphere at PP could and probably will turn unpleasant if results continue in their current vein.
Let's be honest Rams fans seem to have developed some sense of entitlement believing that we have some divine right to be at least challenging for promo to, if not in, the PL. They should remember recent past events and realise that, if their miniscule brains are capable of logical thought, we are still recovering from near extinction. However, that ain't going to happen so Mr Clowes is now reliant on Warne to bring home the bacon and justify his support.

Personally, I'm doubtful it can be turned around. Don't forget though, there's always next season and that looked unlikely at one point after the MM debacle!

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We seem to be in something of a conundrum. People on here are largely good natured and want only what is best for the club.
I think virtually everyone agrees that we should be grateful to Mr. Clowes and that, to an large extent, he is beyond criticism.

On the other hand, despite being broadly supportive, there is criticism of PW on here. It’s never particularly nasty - as I believe it is in other quarters - but I don’t necessarily think it’s ‘entitlement’ that leads to such criticism.

The typical hope and expectation from any realistic fan this season would have been survival and being relatively comfortable in lower mid table and that’s nothing like what we’ve seen for the last three plus months.
MA suggests he has one and a half seasons left to prove himself. While respecting his opinion I can’t agree. That could well see us yo-yoing between L1 and the Championship for the foreseeable and I don’t think fans will accept that. For me the result at home to Oxford is hugely important. Lose the next two and the reaction will become toxic. Get relegated and I feel he has to go.

Losing to 8th placed Norwich is a likelihood and I fully expect it to happen. Bookies agree. Betting 1 gbp would see the following returns

Norwich to win 1.75 GBP (3/4 in old money - you win 75p and get your quid back)
Draw 3.60 GBP (2.6/1 - you win 2 pound 60 plus your quid)
Derby to win 4.75 GBP (3.75/1 - you win 3 pound 75 plus your quid)

Oxford is, to me, a must win game, as is QPR and Millwall is a mustn't lose, at the moment but not getting 6 points from QPR and Oxford would make it a must win.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Not entirely sure of your point, Swale.

Mine was that his transfer dealings haven?t been as impressive as we hoped and I pointed to nine or ten signings who haven?t, imo, been value for money at a time when we?ve needed to make every penny count.

You now seem to be criticising his tactics including his formations. I agree with some of what you say and especially with MA?s thoughts on our defensive formation, but I?ve steered clear of commenting too much on the basis of, as you suggest, not being privy to PW?s thinking etc.

I don?t disagree that some good acquisitions have been made, but imo they?re a minority. I?m just not sure now, if my observations about signings are true, yours about chopping and changing and playing players out of position are accurate and MA?s observations about formation are well founded, how long he?s got before he?s held accountable for the position we find ourselves in.

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OK how impressive did you hope the signings were going to be given the EFL financial restrictions on both transfer fees and wages?

You did indeed point to some signings that you thought weren't "value for money" - 1 was Waghorn picked up on a free who scored 7 goals and played 27 games in our promotion season until injury cut short his contribution, how was he a "poor" signing?

I also pointed out others including Bradley, who were good L1 squad players and provided back up when required.

I also pointed out that even the great Pep at Man City makes "poor" signings, but they cost in excess of ?40 million a pop and he has numerous scouts, analysts as well as the financial and club status clout. So perhaps Warne operating on a shoe string until last summer (and not overly flush with funds even then) has actually done rather well?

My point is that you bang on about poor signings - overlooking both injuries and the fact Derby were shopping in the bargain basement when the facts are very few were poor in the sense that they made no contribution to the team. Yes some have suffered injuries, some recurring including Roony who you seem to rate yet has really only played a handful of games as yet due to injury. CBT, Ward had good track records as L1 players when signed, injury has stopped them fulfilling their potential, how is that Wanre's fault or bad judgement?

I just get the impression that you take no consideration as to how and why those players were signed, in a squad which got automatic promotion this season.

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Originally Posted by swaledale

OK how impressive did you hope the signings were going to be given the EFL financial restrictions on both transfer fees and wages?

You did indeed point to some signings that you thought weren't "value for money" - 1 was Waghorn picked up on a free who scored 7 goals and played 27 games in our promotion season until injury cut short his contribution, how was he a "poor" signing?

I also pointed out others including Bradley, who were good L1 squad players and provided back up when required.

I also pointed out that even the great Pep at Man City makes "poor" signings, but they cost in excess of ?40 million a pop and he has numerous scouts, analysts as well as the financial and club status clout. So perhaps Warne operating on a shoe string until last summer (and not overly flush with funds even then) has actually done rather well?

My point is that you bang on about poor signings - overlooking both injuries and the fact Derby were shopping in the bargain basement when the facts are very few were poor in the sense that they made no contribution to the team. Yes some have suffered injuries, some recurring including Roony who you seem to rate yet has really only played a handful of games as yet due to injury. CBT, Ward had good track records as L1 players when signed, injury has stopped them fulfilling their potential, how is that Wanre's fault or bad judgement?

I just get the impression that you take no consideration as to how and why those players were signed, in a squad which got automatic promotion this season.

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As impressive as the likes of Nelson, Wilson, Adams and Nyambe, or from slightly earlier, Mendez-Laing, Collins, Smith, Wildsmith, Roberts, McGoldrick and Osula. All signings made at times of the financial restrictions you speak of.

On the subject of Waghorn, if I remember correctly he got off to a flyer, scoring five goals by the end of August but only adding two in the rest of the season and the appearance record you speak of can be misleading as it doesn’t differentiate between those who start and last the whole match and those who come on for the last ten minutes or have to come off after twenty minutes. I’d be amazed if Waghorn managed many/any full games. He certainly wasn’t one Warne showed any interest in keeping and I think he’s since managed half a dozen games for Northampton before having his contract terminated.

Bradley I suspect was bought as a leader. He rapidly proved to be not worth a place in the starting XI let alone the armband and by the time he left he was fifth in the pecking order as a first choice CD.

The comparison with Pep is an entirely different argument, but as far as injuries are concerned, has PW just been repeatedly unlucky or is he, in his anxiety to buy apparent bargains, collecting those who are horribly injury prone? I don’t know the answer but if you’re building an argument around Waghorn and Bradley representing good investments then we’re going to have to agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

The comparison with Pep is an entirely different argument, but as far as injuries are concerned, has PW just been repeatedly unlucky or is he, in his anxiety to buy apparent bargains, collecting those who are horribly injury prone? I don’t know the answer but if you’re building an argument around Waghorn and Bradley representing good investments then we’re going to have to agree to disagree.

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Was CBT injury prone at Charlton?

With regard to the bit in bold, I refer my learned friend to the many times I've described the DCFC transfer process on here.

1. PW and his staff compile a list of roles they wish to fill and they add some suggestions of player names that would fit the bill. They have no knowledge of a player's avalbility. It's more like, we'd like Fred Karno if available, if he's not, we'd like a similar sort of player.

2. The recruitment team source players, either named or in the same vein as one of the named players. They then scout them to check if they fit the bill. If the answer is yes, it's talk to the club, agent and player time. Can they negotiate a fee that makes sense in the market and within DCFC's budget. Once agreement has been reached between all parties the buck passes back to PW

3. PW has a (video) chat with the player and then he has the final say.

I have yet to find someone able to explain to me exactly why the fact we have a predominantly L1 level squad, taking into account the above, the inability to pay fees to club, player or agent in the previous 2 seasons, the limited budget the club (note club, not PW) had and the plethora of injuries is, somehow, PWs fault.

He might have the last word but the majority of the work is done by other "departments".

Is Fred Karno still playing for Chesterfield?

No, but here's a team photo from one of his teams...

https://www.bridgemanimages.com/en/n.../asset/3280847