OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

May I suggest that the problem in the UK and in the US is that the polarisation is caused by, what in reality, is a 2 party system with nothing (of relevance) in between.

Here in NL we have PR. That has never resulted in a 1 party government. It's always a coalition. The current one consists of 4 parties, all right of centre to a lesser or greater degree. Reaching a concensus means taking the hard edges and sharp points out of the 4 manifestoes and stops extremism. IMO, a far better idea than the continual lurch from left to right and back again we see in UK/USA.

It leads to a more people centric than profit centric set of policies. There is the realisation that you need to have social policies to help those needing it but that the money to finance the social policies needs businesses to generate jobs and profits to finance those policies. Businesses aren't allowed to "run riot" and the social side is kept in proportion.

Maybe the UK should try it.

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Originally Posted by MadAmster

May I suggest that the problem in the UK and in the US is that the polarisation is caused by, what in reality, is a 2 party system with nothing (of relevance) in between.

Here in NL we have PR. That has never resulted in a 1 party government. It's always a coalition. The current one consists of 4 parties, all right of centre to a lesser or greater degree. Reaching a concensus means taking the hard edges and sharp points out of the 4 manifestoes and stops extremism. IMO, a far better idea than the continual lurch from left to right and back again we see in UK/USA.

It leads to a more people centric than profit centric set of policies. There is the realisation that you need to have social policies to help those needing it but that the money to finance the social policies needs businesses to generate jobs and profits to finance those policies. Businesses aren't allowed to "run riot" and the social side is kept in proportion.

Maybe the UK should try it.

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Good point...well made, MA.
In truth the emergence of Trump and Johnson probably signifies a more significant move to the Right than has been seen previously in our lifetime (Thatcher apart) and is maybe not typical.
The down side I suppose is that it would probably make the odious Nigel’s election more likely...but that might be a small price to pay if the sense of your last two sentences came into being.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Good point...well made, MA.
In truth the emergence of Trump and Johnson probably signifies a more significant move to the Right than has been seen previously in our lifetime (Thatcher apart) and is maybe not typical.
The down side I suppose is that it would probably make the odious Nigel’s election more likely...but that might be a small price to pay if the sense of your last two sentences came into being.

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Thatcher to be fair was more one nation conservative than the current lot and pro european, even if it was on her terms!

You'd think voters would like coalitions but it seems they supposedly think that they don't lead to decisive decision making! Which is odd, they rather have decisive bad decisions than better decisions arising from long discussion? But then we are back to wanting quick simple solutions to complex issues.

And don't forget that voters rejected a move from FPTP voting, though the alternative offered wasn't great and not understood by voters.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

I may not change minds, Swale...I’m aware of that and sometimes people’s views are too entrenched.
You should be able to and don’t precisely because you call your ‘audience’ ‘****s’ and immediately alienate them.
‘Muscular’? I imagine that’s how Trump’s mob from last night view themselves too.

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rA it doesn't seem to occur to you that maybe I'm not trying to change minds? I know most won't and tbh I'm not interested whether they do or not. I'm happy to have a discussion with people who use facts and evidence to support their view, if your regurgitating bull****, don't give a toss. If their praising and promoting a guy like Farage who appears on the same platform as someone like Trump then frankly their a lost cause.

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Originally Posted by swaledale

Thatcher to be fair was more one nation conservative than the current lot...

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How sad is that comment...especially from you? Just goes to show how far we’ve slipped to the Right over the last five years.

I’ll never forgive Cameron and Osborne for their mishandling of Brexit but they’d seem positively enlightened in comparison to what’s followed.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

How sad is that comment...especially from you? Just goes to show how far we’ve slipped to the Right over the last five years.

I’ll never forgive Cameron and Osborne for their mishandling of Brexit but they’d seem positively enlightened in comparison to what’s followed.

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I'm not praising Thatcher, disliked her intensely, but lets not forget that we had a Labour government which certainly until Brown took over, did very little to deviate from the direction of travel Thatcher had set. In fact I'd say Blair was just slightly to the left of Thatcher.

I'd also add that both parties in the US are badivally right leaning, just that one leans a bit further than the other. And Trump leans even further than either party.

Agree Blair was essentially not much different to Thatcher but with more charm, but I think he realised he had to adopt that stance to get anywhere and then try to move more left centre when in a position to do so.

Demonstrating my point that political parties are a huge negative, playing games to get into power and mimicking each others policies in order to do that. They move and adopt to the perceived mood of the nation, not the needs of the nation, in order to gain power. Machiavelli 1.0

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Originally Posted by swaledale

rA it doesn't seem to occur to you that maybe I'm not trying to change minds? I know most won't and tbh I'm not interested whether they do or not. I'm happy to have a discussion with people who use facts and evidence to support their view, if your regurgitating bull****, don't give a toss. If their praising and promoting a guy like Farage who appears on the same platform as someone like Trump then frankly their a lost cause.

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I think you miss my point, Swale. It’s pointless just coming on a forum to ‘slag’ people off. It may well be the case that people aren’t as informed as you, but all your attitude often does is alienate people and ultimately drive them away. Probably bad for your blood pressure too.
You know I think exactly the same about Farage as you but, if anything, your ‘style’ will have driven people into the UKIP embrace rather making them stop to ponder. What’s the point of that?
I’m not given to reacher analogies, but you’ll remember the heavy handed ones who’s first recourse was to shouting and belittling. Eventually they just became laughing stocks in both the staffroom and amongst the kids.
Far more effective were the flashes of anger and annoyance from those with a reputation for being reasonable and fair.

P.S. A little O/T, but...got one eye on Sky News at the moment...don’t think I’ve ever seen such a level of hypocrisy from anyone as Trump at the moment. The fact that such a delusional and dangerous creature was ever ‘elected’ is truly terrifying.

While you're watching that rA, bear in mind the interesting comments by LeBron James and Anthony Davies about how the police would have reacted had it been black faces storming the Capitol.

Not often I agree with the more extreme BLM observations, but police hardly shot at the largely white mob. Looting means shooting says Trump... unless they are white republican protestors

Totally agree GP. Trump even blaming Antifa. Slowly but surely, names are being put to faces and 4 of the more prominent ones have already been named and shamed (they won't feel shamed though) and they are leading lights in Qanon/Proud Boys and other right wing groups.