OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Could you do the same while I spend five minutes alone in a room with Williamson please?

More seriously and speaking personally, although I suspect Swale might agree, the difference is that I don’t see us as being in some sort of competition.
HMG seriously screwed up over most of it’s handling of the pandemic...that’s why the figures are so bad.
They have gone some way to putting that right by making a much better job of sorting vaccinations (so far) than either the EU or, from what I gather, the US.
So both credit and criticism where it’s due, but headlines such as ‘Brexit 1 v EU 0’ just don’t help and neither does the anti EU point scoring mentality from the usual suspects on here.
As Swale, I think, has pointed out...yes we have to look after ourselves but this ‘I’m alright Jack’ attitude will achieve nothing and if we are to return to something approaching normality within the next few months we have to realise that we are all in this together and all sides need to stop the ‘point scoring’.

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Who was the one who has been comparing our death figures with those of other countries around the world? It seems that it's only point scoring when the UK is ahead.

Out of interest, who are you referring to regarding having this 'I'm alright Jack' attitude?

In time, hopefully, some enquiry will come to a balanced view as to why our figures are so bad, there will be many factors which all coming together have made the difference.

Off the top of my head, here's a few

Poor decisions from the government, some with hindsight, some listening to the wrong experts, some just plain wrong.
Ignorance or just plain disobedience of some of the population
A very high level of obesity in the population
A very high proportion of BAME within the population
Bad luck with type of variants of covid occuring in the UK

Some governments have handled it better some worse
Our nature is not always to be as compliant as some other nations
Simple fact more obese people die from covid and we have one of the highest obesity rates
As above
We have identified the 'British' variant which has caused this latest massive spike in cases and deaths, a much higher proportion of our cases compared with other countries, who's to say that the variant we had right at the start, was not another 'British type' variant, that didn't occur elsewhere?

One interesting fact is that although Britain has tested far more people now than many other countries (point scoring), our total number of cases, isn't so high, but our deaths are. From this fact do we assume that our health service has failed or has one of the above factors come into the equation?

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Originally Posted by Ram59

Who was the one who has been comparing our death figures with those of other countries around the world? It seems that it's only point scoring when the UK is ahead.

Out of interest, who are you referring to regarding having this 'I'm alright Jack' attitude?

In time, hopefully, some enquiry will come to a balanced view as to why our figures are so bad, there will be many factors which all coming together have made the difference.

Off the top of my head, here's a few

Poor decisions from the government, some with hindsight, some listening to the wrong experts, some just plain wrong.
Ignorance or just plain disobedience of some of the population
A very high level of obesity in the population
A very high proportion of BAME within the population
Bad luck with type of variants of covid occuring in the UK

Some governments have handled it better some worse
Our nature is not always to be as compliant as some other nations
Simple fact more obese people die from covid and we have one of the highest obesity rates
As above
We have identified the 'British' variant which has caused this latest massive spike in cases and deaths, a much higher proportion of our cases compared with other countries, who's to say that the variant we had right at the start, was not another 'British type' variant, that didn't occur elsewhere?

One interesting fact is that although Britain has tested far more people now than many other countries (point scoring), our total number of cases, isn't so high, but our deaths are. From this fact do we assume that our health service has failed or has one of the above factors come into the equation?

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Exactly what I would have written, plus one further point, our reporting honesty is better than most (my best knowledge is of Spain, and they have been found out internally to be under reporting, I'm sure other countries are equally culpable)

The ratio of admissions to deaths is a real touchy subject amongst all in positions of power, I mentioned recently a BBc interview where the answer given was non-sencical but allowed to go

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Originally Posted by Ram59

Who was the one who has been comparing our death figures with those of other countries around the world? It seems that it's only point scoring when the UK is ahead.

Out of interest, who are you referring to regarding having this 'I'm alright Jack' attitude?

In time, hopefully, some enquiry will come to a balanced view as to why our figures are so bad, there will be many factors which all coming together have made the difference.

Off the top of my head, here's a few

Poor decisions from the government, some with hindsight, some listening to the wrong experts, some just plain wrong.
Ignorance or just plain disobedience of some of the population
A very high level of obesity in the population
A very high proportion of BAME within the population
Bad luck with type of variants of covid occuring in the UK

Some governments have handled it better some worse
Our nature is not always to be as compliant as some other nations
Simple fact more obese people die from covid and we have one of the highest obesity rates
As above
We have identified the 'British' variant which has caused this latest massive spike in cases and deaths, a much higher proportion of our cases compared with other countries, who's to say that the variant we had right at the start, was not another 'British type' variant, that didn't occur elsewhere?

One interesting fact is that although Britain has tested far more people now than many other countries (point scoring), our total number of cases, isn't so high, but our deaths are. From this fact do we assume that our health service has failed or has one of the above factors come into the equation?

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It’s completely unavoidable to reach certain conclusions when one sees one’s own country having the worst Covid related figures in Europe and amongst the worst in the World.
Yes I criticised the UK Govt for that, just as I’ve congratulated them for the vaccine handling. Not a case of point scoring...the fact that our figures were so poor just saddened and worried me.

Do we have a higher proportion of obese or BAME or even old people in the population than say Germany or France? I just don’t know.
Are we naturally ‘less compliant’ than other countries? Again I don’t know, not sure how you can tell, but MA’s recent evidence from Holland would suggest not, as would the recent scenes from the USA.
You can come up with all manner of excuses. The fact is our case and death figures are as bad as our vaccination figures are good and you’re in danger of just ‘cherry picking’.

The ‘I’m alright Jack attitude’ is illustrated by headlines such as ‘Brexit 1 v EU 0’ which appeared this morning and, as ever, the more jingoistic anti EU commentators. It’s really unhelpful imo.

As regards the ‘British variant’. It’s only a couple of weeks ago you were denying it’s existence. Now you’re suggesting there might be two. Make your mind up chap.

On the ‘testing point’. Could it be that we were very slow getting the testing sorted and that those making up the ‘death figures’ now were already too far down the line before this was done?

As a POI on testing...my daughter, who has been teaching every school day since last June, has very recently been provided with the facility to self test twice a week between last week and half term. The only time she’d been tested beforehand was when someone she’d come into contact with on site had already proved ‘positive’.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

It’s completely unavoidable to reach certain conclusions when one sees one’s own country having the worst Covid related figures in Europe and amongst the worst in the World.
Yes I criticised the UK Govt for that, just as I’ve congratulated them for the vaccine handling. Not a case of point scoring...the fact that our figures were so poor just saddened and worried me.

Do we have a higher proportion of obese or BAME or even old people in the population than say Germany or France? I just don’t know.
Are we naturally ‘less compliant’ than other countries? Again I don’t know, not sure how you can tell, but MA’s recent evidence from Holland would suggest not, as would the recent scenes from the USA.
You can come up with all manner of excuses. The fact is our case and death figures are as bad as our vaccination figures are good and you’re in danger of just ‘cherry picking’.

The ‘I’m alright Jack attitude’ is illustrated by headlines such as ‘Brexit 1 v EU 0’ which appeared this morning and, as ever, the more jingoistic anti EU commentators. It’s really unhelpful imo.

As regards the ‘British variant’. It’s only a couple of weeks ago you were denying it’s existence. Now you’re suggesting there might be two. Make your mind up chap.

On the ‘testing point’. Could it be that we were very slow getting the testing sorted and that those making up the ‘death figures’ now were already too far down the line before this was done?

As a POI on testing...my daughter, who has been teaching every school day since last June, has very recently been provided with the facility to self test twice a week between last week and half term. The only time she’d been tested beforehand was when someone she’d come into contact with on site had already proved ‘positive’.

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So, you're quoting the headlines from a comic to illustrate your belief of the UK's attitude in this matter, fair enough, but I believe that Macron and 1 eastern EU leaders attitudes are far more concerning. Macron spreading lies about the efficiency of the Astra vaccine and the other leader claiming that the UK has stolen their vaccines because we paid more to get them, we must have been psychic because we agreed our price 3 months before the EU. These people are leaders of their countries, for Christ's sake.

I've never been Johnson's biggest fan,but I think our government's handling of this situation has been excellent so far, resisting all temptation of being jingoistic.

As I've said. hopefully, a balanced and fair enquiry will get to the bottom of the covid figures, which simply don't appear to add up. There has to be a reason or a combination of reasons, as to why we have these figures. There has to be a reason for our very high death when coupled with our case rate per test. I've just thought of another important criteria, population density. But, then countries like India, don't appear to have suffered so much, or is it a case of other countries not been honest with their data? I don't know.

Cheap shot RA, when have I denied that there is a variant first found in Britain? My objection was entirely Merkel's description of the British virus, I expected better from you. But my point still stands, we now know that there are many variations of the same virus with different infection rates and different death rates, this is probably the most sensible answer as to why different countries are being affected to different levels. Basically, it could largely down to luck whether you have the 'wrong' variant in your country which significantly affects the death rate. Considering we're in lockdown, our medics have more knowledge to treat patients and we're constantly being told that new drugs and treatments are saving more lives, the recent wave has been horrendous, could it be down to the common variant, ATM?

On a side note I agreed with Sonia Sodha's article in the Observer today, regarding Starmer and the GMA and their thoughts on teacher vaccinations and the second dose delay, respectively.

The trouble is that we're drifting from one topic to another, ATM. lol

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Originally Posted by Ram59

So, you're quoting the headlines from a comic to illustrate your belief of the UK's attitude in this matter, fair enough, but I believe that Macron and 1 eastern EU leaders attitudes are far more concerning. Macron spreading lies about the efficiency of the Astra vaccine and the other leader claiming that the UK has stolen their vaccines because we paid more to get them, we must have been psychic because we agreed our price 3 months before the EU. These people are leaders of their countries, for Christ's sake.

I've never been Johnson's biggest fan,but I think our government's handling of this situation has been excellent so far, resisting all temptation of being jingoistic.

As I've said. hopefully, a balanced and fair enquiry will get to the bottom of the covid figures, which simply don't appear to add up. There has to be a reason or a combination of reasons, as to why we have these figures. There has to be a reason for our very high death when coupled with our case rate per test. I've just thought of another important criteria, population density. But, then countries like India, don't appear to have suffered so much, or is it a case of other countries not been honest with their data? I don't know.

Cheap shot RA, when have I denied that there is a variant first found in Britain? My objection was entirely Merkel's description of the British virus, I expected better from you. But my point still stands, we now know that there are many variations of the same virus with different infection rates and different death rates, this is probably the most sensible answer as to why different countries are being affected to different levels. Basically, it could largely down to luck whether you have the 'wrong' variant in your country which significantly affects the death rate. Considering we're in lockdown, our medics have more knowledge to treat patients and we're constantly being told that new drugs and treatments are saving more lives, the recent wave has been horrendous, could it be down to the common variant, ATM?

On a side note I agreed with Sonia Sodha's article in the Observer today, regarding Starmer and the GMA and their thoughts on teacher vaccinations and the second dose delay, respectively.

The trouble is that we're drifting from one topic to another, ATM. lol

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I may be ‘quoting from a comic’, Ram...but it’s a widely read ‘comic’ that unfortunately forms and supports a lot of populist opinion in this country.

‘Balanced enquiry’? I’ll await that with interest...or maybe not. If it’s anything like the Hillsborough enquiry, amongst others, it’ll will probably have been completed by about 2045.

I don’t think it’s a ‘cheap shot’ at all. A fortnight or so ago you queried the existence of a ‘British variant’ and threw a strop over European politicians having the audacity to refer to the ‘British virus’ even though it was only as a means of identification.
Now you seem to be raising the possibility of an original unidentified British variant as a possible explanation for our woeful figures.
Seems somewhat inconsistent to me.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

I may be ‘quoting from a comic’, Ram...but it’s a widely read ‘comic’ that unfortunately forms and supports a lot of populist opinion in this country.

‘Balanced enquiry’? I’ll await that with interest...or maybe not. If it’s anything like the Hillsborough enquiry, amongst others, it’ll will probably have been completed by about 2045.

I don’t think it’s a ‘cheap shot’ at all. A fortnight or so ago you queried the existence of a ‘British variant’ and threw a strop over European politicians having the audacity to refer to the ‘British virus’ even though it was only as a means of identification.
Now you seem to be raising the possibility of an original unidentified British variant as a possible explanation for our woeful figures.
Seems somewhat inconsistent to me.

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I never queried the existence of the variant found in the UK, just Merkel's anti-anglo description as it being the 'British virus'. Can you show me where any other leader has described any of the variants as the South African virus, the Brazilian virus or the British virus or any other virus?

There is a lot of anti-UK feeling in the EU atm, driven by Brexit and the UK's successful vaccination programme and some leaders are grasping at every opportunity to have a dig at the UK, some of it subtle like Merkel, some not so subtle like Macron.

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Originally Posted by Ram59

I never queried the existence of the variant found in the UK, just Merkel's anti-anglo description as it being the 'British virus'. Can you show me where any other leader has described any of the variants as the South African virus, the Brazilian virus or the British virus or any other virus?

There is a lot of anti-UK feeling in the EU atm, driven by Brexit and the UK's successful vaccination programme and some leaders are grasping at every opportunity to have a dig at the UK, some of it subtle like Merkel, some not so subtle like Macron.

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Funny how semantics, whipping up "patriotic" fervour and being insulting is fine when its Johnson and his cohorts do it, but somehow reprehensible when foreign politicians engage in it!


For the record the Eu Commission made a grave error in their actions over the vaccine and exports, one that it seems even member countries were unaware of in some cases, that may lead to a welcome reset in national re EU coordination.

Johnson has remained silent, because he knows damn well that he started the whole threaten, bluster, insult populist style of politics which in the end does nobody any good.

Hopefully a return to a calmer more cooperative approach is now on the cards, but the Uk set the tone with their attitude over the Brexit negotiations and of course claiming that the UK does things much better than any other country over the vaccine - yes we do do many things well and do other things equally dreadfully.

Regrettably politics everywhere has become rather boorish and childish, but it seems that gets lapped up by some voters.

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Originally Posted by Ram59

I never queried the existence of the variant found in the UK, just Merkel's anti-anglo description as it being the 'British virus'. Can you show me where any other leader has described any of the variants as the South African virus, the Brazilian virus or the British virus or any other virus?

There is a lot of anti-UK feeling in the EU atm, driven by Brexit and the UK's successful vaccination programme and some leaders are grasping at every opportunity to have a dig at the UK, some of it subtle like Merkel, some not so subtle like Macron.

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That’s not quite true, Ram. I can’t be bothered to track back to find it but while, as you say, you got particularly het up over the term ‘British virus’, you also, if memory serves, questioned that it actually was a ‘British variant’ at all...suggesting that it may well have been brought in from abroad.

I neither know nor care whether other leaders have used the word ‘virus’ or ‘variant’. As of today one of our biggest problems would appear to be the significant emergence of the SA virus/variant. What it is called is the least of our worries. We all know what it means.

Well well well, maybe Brexit has some some positives afterall. This could get interesting.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...3aKES2TXiGmDHs

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Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds

Well well well, maybe Brexit has some some positives afterall. This could get interesting.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...3aKES2TXiGmDHs

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Interesting, I see three problems in that (for Labour)

1. Anyone with half a brain (so ironically, Swales’ ‘thick people’) will see through it

2. Momentum and the Snowflakes will bloody hate it

3. The Conservatives are waaay better at it (ie using patriotism as a device, not necessarily actually being patriotic)