Palestine is off the map.

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Originally Posted by sinkov

The more I see of this virtue-signalling, Leftie FAKE NEWS, lies and drivel BT, promulgated by useful idiots in the west, the more I feel for the Israelis and the poor buggers in Gaza who have to live with the consequences. Instead of this infantile propaganda, why not try working towards a peaceful resolution to this problem, instead of condemning the Palestinians and their children to a future of permanent conflict with Israel, a battle they will never win, and can only impoverish them further ?

Is it anti-semitism disguised as anti-zionism that inspires this unswerving support for Hamas and it's methods, an organisation dedicated to the destruction of the Israeli state and the eradication of all Jews from the face of the earth, or is there another reason ?

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Strong stuff Sinkov. did you have a bad pint last night?

Can I ask where you get your unadulterated, true news from which helps to form your opinion on Israel/Palestine?

Do YOU recognise the Palestinian state? The UK, USA etc don't.

Although Layla Moran and the Lib Dems are trying to change this
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20...r-declaration/

I fully support the motion above - do you?

It really is a cheap shot to suggest that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic. If I suggested that you were anti-muslim because of your views then you would quite rightly deny it.

A lot of people in Israel justify there not being a Palestinian state on the teachings of the Bible.
In my opinion invoking the Bible is no way to reach a conclusion.

But - even accepting what was said in the Bible is the final word, the Bible DOES NOT reach the conclusion that the territory should be Israeli.
An explanation at the link below.

https://www.ucg.org/world-news-and-p...d-is-it-really

You could of course BT, if you wished to have a sensible and reasonable debate on this issue, answer the questions I asked in Post 48, and you could also respond to my two questions in Post 60. But you choose not to.

And yes I know the Palestinians are suffering, you don't have to be a Labour Party member to realise that. I do however have my ideas on the best way forward to alleviate their suffering, which I have outlined several times on here, even on this thread. Your way forward appears to be continued support and encouragement of Hamas's policy of provoking military retaliation by the IDF, following which they can display photos of their dead and injured citizens to the outside world. I can only assume they, and you presumably, think they win some sort of propaganda war by these tactics, but it exhorts a terrible toll on the Palestinian people existing under their yoke, and I have enormous sympathy for these poor people placed in this horrendous situation. And of course these tactics, to have any chance of success, need the support and encouragement of useful idiots in the Western democracies like Corbyn and your good self. But these tactics cannot succeed, will not succeed, and merely prolong the suffering of the Palestinian people. With friends like you and Corbyn, those poor buggers in Gaza don't need any enemies.

Do you not think there might be a better way ? A way which can only begin when Hamas accepts the right of Israel and the Jewish people to exist, and that involves sitting round a table and talking ?

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Originally Posted by sinkov

You could of course BT, if you wished to have a sensible and reasonable debate on this issue, answer the questions I asked in Post 48, and you could also respond to my two questions in Post 60. But you choose not to.

And yes I know the Palestinians are suffering, you don't have to be a Labour Party member to realise that. I do however have my ideas on the best way forward to alleviate their suffering, which I have outlined several times on here, even on this thread. Your way forward appears to be continued support and encouragement of Hamas's policy of provoking military retaliation by the IDF, following which they can display photos of their dead and injured citizens to the outside world. I can only assume they, and you presumably, think they win some sort of propaganda war by these tactics, but it exhorts a terrible toll on the Palestinian people existing under their yoke, and I have enormous sympathy for these poor people placed in this horrendous situation. And of course these tactics, to have any chance of success, need the support and encouragement of useful idiots in the Western democracies like Corbyn and your good self. But these tactics cannot succeed, will not succeed, and merely prolong the suffering of the Palestinian people. With friends like you and Corbyn, those poor buggers in Gaza don't need any enemies.

Do you not think there might be a better way ? A way which can only begin when Hamas accepts the right of Israel and the Jewish people to exist, and that involves sitting round a table and talking ?

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I agree with a lot of that Sinkov.

But it takes two to tango.

And it must involve everyone in these negotiations recognising a Palestinian state.

If you can get the Israelis, USA and UK etc to agree to this then we may actually start to make progress.

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Originally Posted by sinkov

You could of course BT, if you wished to have a sensible and reasonable debate on this issue, answer the questions I asked in Post 48, and you could also respond to my two questions in Post 60. But you choose not to.

And yes I know the Palestinians are suffering, you don't have to be a Labour Party member to realise that. I do however have my ideas on the best way forward to alleviate their suffering, which I have outlined several times on here, even on this thread. Your way forward appears to be continued support and encouragement of Hamas's policy of provoking military retaliation by the IDF, following which they can display photos of their dead and injured citizens to the outside world. I can only assume they, and you presumably, think they win some sort of propaganda war by these tactics, but it exhorts a terrible toll on the Palestinian people existing under their yoke, and I have enormous sympathy for these poor people placed in this horrendous situation. And of course these tactics, to have any chance of success, need the support and encouragement of useful idiots in the Western democracies like Corbyn and your good self. But these tactics cannot succeed, will not succeed, and merely prolong the suffering of the Palestinian people. With friends like you and Corbyn, those poor buggers in Gaza don't need any enemies.

Do you not think there might be a better way ? A way which can only begin when Hamas accepts the right of Israel and the Jewish people to exist, and that involves sitting round a table and talking ?

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There is a solution. A two state solution. Problem is Islamic Jihadis Hamas don't want it, the twin Kings of corruption Trump and Netanyahu don't want it, so just who you think might want to sit round a table and share a cuppa?

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Originally Posted by sinkov

I read it very carefully BT, I noticed your little get out word 'most'.

So how many are 'most', how many are allowed out to search for work ? How many are not allowed out to search for work ? How do the Israelis differentiate and make a decision ? Where do they go in this search for work ? How many and what sort of work is available ? How many are successful in finding work ? At which border crossing was that photo taken and on what date ?

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Unfortunately, I have no access to the Palestinians clocking in cards, nor the Gaza City Job Centre so I have no possibility to answer your question.

The Israel and Egyptian blockades do not allow any raw materials into the enclave which obviously rules out any hope of the Palestinians becoming self sustaining. The photo was apparently smuggled out from the Occupation Checkpoint and the photographer will no doubt wish to remain anonymous because the IDF would be kicking the door in.

59_60: It seems great for all to agree, ''But it takes two to tango.'' That's very good if there were just two to tango! But on the Palestinian side ,who can Israel speak with? Lets say, Hamas, then Islamic Jihad , or Al-Kassem brigades,and in Gaza there could be more. In what you call the West Bank there is Fatah, but already small militant cells of Hamas are there. Plus the relationship Fatah and Hamas is non existent? So with whom can Israel endevour, with all these different groups to reach in a final peace agreement?

But what do the Palestinians want ? The leadership says, ( Ismail Haniyeh ) ''we will never recognize the Zionist Government and will continue our jihad like movement until the liberation of Jerusalem......Now reach a peace agreement with that!

Balan, during The troubles in Northern Ireland, which spilled over to the British mainland and Ireland, the situation seemed to be unsolvable. Both sides were very entrenched.
But the ordinary people who lived there were sick of it. Both sides longed for peace.

Eventually both sides were brought together, both holding their noses and against all the odds a resolution was found.

On this occasion the British Government acted as mediators.

So who could mediate in this case? The Americans have nailed their colours firmly to the Israel cause so they are not a viable option. Well, certainly not at the moment anyway.

Could the UN actually do something useful for a change? Would both sides accept their role in this?

The alternative to dialogue seems to be more of the never ending violence on both sides.
And from where I am standing, this will eventually result in the Palestinians being removed from the area and becoming refugees somewhere else. And it seems to me that Israel would be happy with this outcome.

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Originally Posted by 1959_60

Balan, during The troubles in Northern Ireland, which spilled over to the British mainland and Ireland, the situation seemed to be unsolvable. Both sides were very entrenched.
But the ordinary people who lived there were sick of it. Both sides longed for peace.

Eventually both sides were brought together, both holding their noses and against all the odds a resolution was found.

On this occasion the British Government acted as mediators.

So who could mediate in this case? The Americans have nailed their colours firmly to the Israel cause so they are not a viable option. Well, certainly not at the moment anyway.

Could the UN actually do something useful for a change? Would both sides accept their role in this?

The alternative to dialogue seems to be more of the never ending violence on both sides.
And from where I am standing, this will eventually result in the Palestinians being removed from the area and becoming refugees somewhere else. And it seems to me that Israel would be happy with this outcome.

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Just my own thoughts on this dreadful situation:

We can all see with our own eyes the militarised occupation of Palestine by Israel. We also totally fail to fully recognise the extremes of cultural and religious racism, the abhorrent apartheid and the total denial of Human Rights of the Palestinians by their Israeli oppressors.

Israel is occupying the territory of Palestine. The US in particular demands the State of Israel is internationally recognised as the occupying power in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip.

There can be little dispute the Palestinians have been on the receiving end of Israel's institutionalised racism, military occupation and apartheid ever since the Israelis occupied the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip at the conclusion of the Six-Day War in 1967.

As recently as May 2018, Israel passed a nation-state law, which ended once and for all any hypothetical misunderstanding about Israel's identity. The new law openly states Israel is now the nation state of the Jewish people.
The declaration completely disregards the Palestinian people, whilst simultaneously denying them their human rights, culture, language and history.

I abhor anti-Jewish sentiments, but what I find rather alarming is how the global far-right are inspiring their grassroot membership to incite malicious and deadly violence against Muslims.

A pattern is emerging where rabid Islamophobia is being united with a glowing admiration for Israel. The present incumbent of the White House is at the very vanguard of this fascist irrationality. Therefore, POTUS is not welcome in the United Kingdom.

We must all unite to bring an end to the Jewish/Muslim problem in Israel and start to fully recognise the cultural and religious racism, apartheid, ghettoization and denial of freedom and Human Rights the Palestinian Muslims are presently suffering. Anything less threatens the security of Jews and Muslims on a global scale.

Israel's achievement in making total war on Palestinian Muslims a global cause, has become an ideology far-right zealots worldwide are capturing and acting upon. The hateful virus of fascism which resulted in the recent massacre of Muslims in Christchurch, epitomises the grave danger all global citizens face everywhere.

Perhaps Theresa May in a final act of Statesmanship can persuade Donald Trump to fund the discovery of a US inspired antidote for Islamophobia and anti-Semitism? Given the fact the man is an intellectual and political curmudgeon, it makes that scenario regrettably, extremely unlikely.

69 _50 Its a different problem ,it can not be compared with anything else.


Could the UN actually do something? You know UNIFIL has a mandate to ''keep the peace in Lebanon ,yet it is said that Hezbullah have 160 k rockets and can in theory can fire 1000 rockets per day ,for 3 months . How can you explain they have this amount of rockets in Lebanon? If UNIFIL patrols the area ? I served in Lebanon and heard there that Hezbullah ,stops their vehicles ,takes their guns ,beats them and sends them packing!!! So much for the UN.

One could even argue that the Hamas and Fatah charters are worse than that of the PLO. In its Charter, Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel (Article 15) and the murder of Jews (Article 7). It claims to be fighting a world-wide anti-Muslim conspiracy led by Jews and cites in support of its ideology the classic anti-Semitic forgery, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Article 32). It says that it is at war with the non-Muslim world as part of a global campaign of jihad (Introduction), and that Hamas respects and appreciates other jihad movements waging war on non-Muslims (Article 23). In short, it is a totalitarian movement bent on domination and, when it comes to Jews, extermination.

"The first thing that is required of Hamas and Fatah is that both their charters must be changed."

It is time for the US and the world to demand that before there are any further negotiations with Mahmoud Abbas or anyone else in the PA, and before any concessions are considered by Israel, the movements to which PA leaders belong formally renounce and legally abrogate their charters, substituting new ones. The new charters must clearly and publicly accept the existence of Israel as a Jewish state, proclaim a commitment to fight terrorism and end incitement to hatred and murder. If they can't do that, there's really nothing to talk about.

And will Israel and the USA recognise a Palestinian state before these negotiations begin Balan?

If not then your demands would be hypocritical.

If you and the USA agree to recognise a Palestinian state then I would agree.