O/T Prince Charles Tests Positive

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Originally Posted by swaledale

What makes you think Politicians are a breed apart? Ok some are narcissists, driven by the allure of power and greed but on the whole they are much the same as you and me. I've met a fair few and whilst some I loath thats true of the rest of the human race as well.

By and large the electorate gets the politicians they deserve, time and time again unless its some emergency like war, the voting masses do not vote for people who tell the truth or are "authentic", they vote for people who tell them what they want to believe.

How else do you explain people like our friend Tricky who claims to be working class but puts his faith in right wing ideology driven by rich people who couldn't give a stuff about the working class. Why did the germans vote Hitler into power? Why did working class Americans vote for Trump?

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Wow back to normal we go.

"claim" to be working class?
I think I can "claim" to be more working class than you are.

My faith in right idiology as you call it, isn't down to a desire to line any ones up the ladder pockets.
I think my "working class" party has been hijacked by far left loons that have very little in whats right for the rest of us and it appears the electorate agreed.
So restore a credible opposition and I'll vote for it with a pleasure. So far we've had the worst Labour party leader in 85 years and a Liberal party led by a deluded idiot, who proclaimed herself the next priminister, whilst crapping on every voter in the country.

They voted Hitler and Trump in, because they were sick to death of detached MP's thinking they didn't have to listen to anyone else and crapping on everyone.
Are you comparing Trump with the rise of the Nazi's BTW?

Working class people are who you have to convince to get voted into office in any country.
Ask yourself why you and your ilk failed.

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Originally Posted by swaledale

Well ours are supposed to declare all theirs and direct lobbying is more controlled these days. More subtle lobbying is harder to control. I would say there are more principled Mp's than those whoa re in it for the gravy train and being a constituency MP is hard work and life consuming.

Don't we all like Freebies?

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The issue is wider than MPs, Bankers etc (who else is on RA's hit list?), the fact of it, and I'm not even sure if this is a recent thing, is that if you are offered a ticket on the gravy train it's bloody difficult to rip it up. In my uppy downy business life I've been unaware of it, on the cusp of it, well and truly on it and back off it a number of times and in a number of industries, none anywhere near politics or banking, likewise Mrs F, who's job in the past has pretty much depended on a gravy train being in situ. MPs and bankers are just more 'in the news' but other industries - recruitment, PR, music are three I can think of would leave MPs standing - the sheer spend level on banking probably dwarfs them all though

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

The issue is wider than MPs, Bankers etc (who else is on RA's hit list?), the fact of it, and I'm not even sure if this is a recent thing, is that if you are offered a ticket on the gravy train it's bloody difficult to rip it up. In my uppy downy business life I've been unaware of it, on the cusp of it, well and truly on it and back off it a number of times and in a number of industries, none anywhere near politics or banking, likewise Mrs F, who's job in the past has pretty much depended on a gravy train being in situ. MPs and bankers are just more 'in the news' but other industries - recruitment, PR, musicf are three I can think of would leave MPs standing - the sheer spend level on banking probably dwarfs them all though

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Harsh, Andy. MP’s and bankers are not on my ‘hit list’ as you call it.

I simply favour a fairer and more equitable society and I’m opposed to those who get in the way of that i.e. bankers of the selfish variety and MP’s who appear more motivated by ego and self interest than anything else.

I recognise the need for both bankers and MP’s, but I do wish the proverbial bar could be raised in terms of those who often occupy those two positions.

P.S. If I did have a ‘hit list’ then those selling hand sanitiser etc at inflated prices, those queuing to park in the Macclesfield Forest this morning and the most irresponsible leader in the World - Trump - would be right at the top. Can see him being gone, one way or another, before much longer.

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Originally Posted by swaledale

What makes you think Politicians are a breed apart? Ok some are narcissists, driven by the allure of power and greed but on the whole they are much the same as you and me. I've met a fair few and whilst some I loath thats true of the rest of the human race as well.

By and large the electorate gets the politicians they deserve, time and time again unless its some emergency like war, the voting masses do not vote for people who tell the truth or are "authentic", they vote for people who tell them what they want to believe.

How else do you explain people like our friend Tricky who claims to be working class but puts his faith in right wing ideology driven by rich people who couldn't give a stuff about the working class. Why did the germans vote Hitler into power? Why did working class Americans vote for Trump?

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Same as all those who voted for that man of the people, Blair. Just your normal bloke looking after the people, looking after the people, not interested in feathering is own nest, not sending out lads to war to help his yankie friends.

Or those poor miners suckered into an illegal strike because of the vanity of one bloke. He was right BTW, but if he'd had allowed a postal vote and would have won, the strike would have been legal and Thatcher would have been beaten.

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Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds

Wow back to normal we go.

"claim" to be working class?
I think I can "claim" to be more working class than you are.

My faith in right idiology as you call it, isn't down to a desire to line any ones up the ladder pockets.
I think my "working class" party has been hijacked by far left loons that have very little in whats right for the rest of us and it appears the electorate agreed.
So restore a credible opposition and I'll vote for it with a pleasure. So far we've had the worst Labour party leader in 85 years and a Liberal party led by a deluded idiot, who proclaimed herself the next priminister, whilst crapping on every voter in the country.

They voted Hitler and Trump in, because they were sick to death of detached MP's thinking they didn't have to listen to anyone else and crapping on everyone.
Are you comparing Trump with the rise of the Nazi's BTW?

Working class people are who you have to convince to get voted into office in any country.
Ask yourself why you and your ilk failed.

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I said claim because I've no idea whether you are or not, though maybe you are because your wearing your so called class like a badge of honour! Which is strange, why would you be proud at having remained at the same level of society? What is there to be proud of?

As or being more working class than me, mm maybe as things stand today, but my background is not one of a silver spoon, nobody I knew gave me access to anything other people couldn't have. I was laughed at by people like you who were earning "big bucks" in their early 20's whilst i was a poor student and then when I took jobs on low pay but with development prospects. When I carried on getting educated instead of wasting my time down the boozer.

Now I appreciate that not everyone from my background had the ability academically, BUT most had other skills and indeed others founded their own business, had imagination and worked at improving their lot.

If you ****ed around at school, left education and importantly stayed living where you were born then thats fine your choice but you can't really complain that life has treated you unfairly.

I'm not sure your right when you say you have to convince so called working class voters to get elected, it rather depends upon the constituency as in reality its a relatively few seats that elect a government.

Its ironic that you think your "working class" party is now too left wing - last tie I looked left wing ideology was to restrict the unfairness of a small percentage making a lot of wealth at the expense of the majority of society whilst not giving a **** about the so called working class. Labour had moved nearly to the right of Thatcher under Blair so some realignment was necessary.

Me and my ilk? Who would that be then? Anybody with more than half a brain cell between them? We failed? How? Your the apologist for right wing politics that decimated industry in the 80's and exported jobs overseas with no replacement.

Your half right about Hitler and Trump, people do vote for change often blindly but how utterly thick do you have to be to not understand that the promises these shysters make are not actually going to benefit you?

What your really saying is that by and large a whole bulk of the populace ( which from the statements you post on here includes yourself) are unable to deduce facts from fantasy and will vote for anyone who who makes promises that appeals to them with no thought for the consequences!

Yep that makes sense!

You and your ilk will always be fodder for those with power in society, a cheap labour force expendable a willing army to sacrifice according to their whim. Like sheep to the slaughter and now you vote for a rich entitled ex public school boy for whom lying is second nature and who backs the cause that will benefit his own self interest!

Now I wouldn't vote for right wing party and hence the Tories under any circumstances, even though I may personally benefit from their policies. Thats because unlike you I'm not a hypocrite, I don't want to inflict pain on those less fortunate than myself.

Also in this country you don't vote for the leader, you vote for your local MP and the parties policies.

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Originally Posted by Ram59

Same as all those who voted for that man of the people, Blair. Just your normal bloke looking after the people, looking after the people, not interested in feathering is own nest, not sending out lads to war to help his yankie friends.

Or those poor miners suckered into an illegal strike because of the vanity of one bloke. He was right BTW, but if he'd had allowed a postal vote and would have won, the strike would have been legal and Thatcher would have been beaten.

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Which only goes to prove that human beings of all political hues can and are both bad and good. Though why poor miners? Did they not have a voice? Could they not be bothered to rebel against their deluded leader?

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Originally Posted by swaledale

Which only goes to prove that human beings of all political hues can and are both bad and good. Though why poor miners? Did they not have a voice? Could they not be bothered to rebel against their deluded leader?

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Now we are getting deep and into good subjects.

You have actually undermined your whole case here.
Scargill, for the good of the poor. Decided that his word was god and the rule book and democracy was to be ignored.
However good his intensions were, that is not right.
BUT, were his intensions really about miners jobs? Or was this a re run of political games of trying to over throw a government?
You forget I was a miner at that time. Ok I was an apprentice on the engineering trail, so contractually had to keep out of it.

But as has been pointed out, on one hand a megolamaniac thought he could make it up as he went along.
Whilst a government thought it could destroy what it wanted.

The parrallel of this is, who is the blind deluded?
The ones who wanted democracy uphelp, or the ones following a dictator wanting full control. (IS THAT YOUR HITLER PARADOX?)
So when you talk about choices, who was right?

Can I just say Swale, that the exodus of jobs from this country has also been actively ecouraged by the EU, with subsidies to relocate to crappier countries like Bulgaria.
Or is that the Tories as well?

Anyway final thought.
There is a fine line between socialism politics and communism. They were invented for the "common man" to have equal rights in the spoils of things.
Up to date, it hasn't exactly worked out well, for those living under said systems at the bottom of the ladder.

Communism is the political belief that all people are equal, that there should be no private ownership and that workers should control the means of producing things.
...the ultimate triumph of communism in the world.
Synonyms: socialism, Marxism, Stalinism, collectivism More Synonyms of communism

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Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds

Now we are getting deep and into good subjects.

You have actually undermined your whole case here.
Scargill, for the good of the poor. Decided that his word was god and the rule book and democracy was to be ignored.
However good his intensions were, that is not right.
BUT, were his intensions really about miners jobs? Or was this a re run of political games of trying to over throw a government?
You forget I was a miner at that time. Ok I was an apprentice on the engineering trail, so contractually had to keep out of it.

But as has been pointed out, on one hand a megolamaniac thought he could make it up as he went along.
Whilst a government thought it could destroy what it wanted.

The parrallel of this is, who is the blind deluded?
The ones who wanted democracy uphelp, or the ones following a dictator wanting full control. (IS THAT YOUR HITLER PARADOX?)
So when you talk about choices, who was right?

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Ah well now you have identified a common issue with the human condition, the acquisition of power can corrupt and this can happen in many ways. With Scargill you had someone who was equally using miners as pawns for his and the ruling clique of the NUM to further their own political ambitions.

My point there would be why did 100,000s of miners blindly follow an out of control megalomaniac? I kind understand why people would "obey" a national dictator after all your likely to lose your life or liberty if you don't but and yes I know all about intimidation and the nasty tactics used by unions, but the more who rebel the less this can be used.

But then you do have to ask who voted Scargill in as Union leader?

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Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds

Can I just say Swale, that the exodus of jobs from this country has also been actively ecouraged by the EU, with subsidies to relocate to crappier countries like Bulgaria.
Or is that the Tories as well?

Anyway final thought.
There is a fine line between socialism politics and communism. They were invented for the "common man" to have equal rights in the spoils of things.
Up to date, it hasn't exactly worked out well, for those living under said systems at the bottom of the ladder.

Communism is the political belief that all people are equal, that there should be no private ownership and that workers should control the means of producing things.
...the ultimate triumph of communism in the world.
Synonyms: socialism, Marxism, Stalinism, collectivism More Synonyms of communism

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I don't agree that socialism is akin to communism, theres a distinct degree of separation between them.

Whats interesting in terms of left wing and right wing is that the more extreme each "wing" becomes the more similar to each other they become, in operation, philosophy and ideology. If you examined the lifestyles and actions of those in power without knowing their names or political leaning, I'd wager you would find surprisingly little difference between them.

n both instances I'd say that there is a flawed view - stifle private enterprise and you stifle progress and development and people don't benefit.

On the other hand cut back government both national and local and you actually hamper the development of private enterprise which depends upon the state to flourish - infrastructure, education, health etc are all ***** for private enterprise, not to mention a whole host of other things which the private sector guzzles as eagerly as a baby at its mothers tit.

You are kind of choosing to be selective when you say the EU encourages jobs out of the UK to say eastern europe. Thats a decision made by companies who chase lower labour costs. I know you will point to financial incentives, but then those have been applied in the Uk as well.

I think your use of the phrase "crappier" countries is to say the least unfortunate, it implies that we are in some way eminently superior rather than recognise, that firstly they have had the restrictions on development of being in the eastern Bloc and secondly are different socially and culturally to us and but this habit of the British to look down upon other countries is regrettable.

Are you not exhibiting the same sense of superiority which you criticise so much in the politicians?

I would also point out that the UK government was a major force within the EU to extend membership to the eastern bloc countries, of course the political reason was to wean them away from Russian influence, but all decisions have consequences.