OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

My tolerance ends where someone else impinges on my freedoms just as my freedom ends where it impinges on someone else's.

Muslims, Catholics, Jews, Hindu, Buddhists, whatever. I'm perfectly OK for them to believe what they want to believe and practice their religion the way they want to...... up to the point where it starts to negatively affect others. Once it starts to affect someone else who doesn't share those thoughts, that is where your freedom ends.

There were, earlier this year, a group of Muslims refugees who'd made their way to Cyprus. They carried on in their Muslim ways until they became emboldened enough to start harassing Muslim women and girls who weren't being as "Muslim" as the men thought they should be. Westernised clothing. Going to dances etc. The discouragement got physical. It was even aimed at some "Western" women, bar owners etc. The Law stepped in. The harassment stopped. Just the way it should be. Take your freedoms and enjoy them to the limit but don't overstep your boundaries.

The idea of Lily Allen being at rA's end rather makes my eyes water, although perhaps not quite as much as the other way round

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

I DO spend a fair amount of time trying to understand religion/beliefs, and although your point is valid, there are actually marked SIMILARITIES between Christian and (non-extreme) Islamic beliefs - the obvious ones being conservative dress/minimal exposure of flesh, ostracising of those who adulterate and the highly demarcated roles of males and females. It seems to be the extremes that tip the balance, especially in respect of recognising/respecting the beliefs of others - the Amish, for instance, for the most part just scratch their heads quizzically at the antics of what they quaintly call 'The English' (ie everyone else) - we all know where Islamic fundamentalism is at.

There's an interesting (to me) concept called 'The Paradox Of Tolerance' which might be worth boning up on, and IMO Western world is currently wrestling with this concept, with Lilly Allen and rA at one end and Nigel Farage and TTR at the other (possibly with you and I pulling strings somewhere between)

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Lily Allen! Oh ffs...give me some credit.

As regards your hooliganism analogy. You’d have a point if I’d ever suggested that ‘equal weight’ should be given to all forms of fundamentalist inspired terrorism...but I haven’t. All I’ve said is that Muslim’s do not have the monopoly where fundamentalism is concerned.
Maybe it’s the accountant in you that led you to seek to quantify...but I’m actually not sure you’ve done anything other than state the bloody obvious.

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Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone

To take a further example, Christian fundamentalism, as exemplified by the Amish, Mennonites, Hutterites etc and so on takes the form of eschewing technology and working in a community based model.

In fact some of the most fundamentalist regimes in the last 100 years have not been based on religion, but rather informed by political doctrine - eg Pol Pot, Soviet regimes, Maoist China, Ceaucescu etc. One might almost say politics is the new religion

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I wouldn’t disagree with much of that final paragraph, GP...but as regards Christian fundamentalism you cannot just describe it as being associated with the minority groups you have identified.

It runs much deeper and into far more powerful areas than you have described. At the tip of the proverbial iceberg think of the DUP and their fundamentalist Christian tendencies as personified by Edwin Poots and his supporters. Consider the Christian Right in the USA...a coalition of conservative evangelical Protestants and Roman Catholics who’s views on aspects of medical research, homos exuality, contraception, abortion, the role of women, euthanasia and s ex education, amongst others, might be described as having much in common with those of the Taliban.

Of course such people, including Mike Pence (Trump’s Deputy), don’t need to appear as the shadowy and sinister, bearded, weapon carrying terrorists that we are all so fearful of. They already have the power, and control over much of the media that allows them to hide in plain sight.

Im afraid that is so much horse**** rA. The "Christian Right" as you put it are part of what I had previously described as political fundamentalism, but the religion is predominantly an excuse to connect to / gain support of the rednecks in the community. The objectives are far more sinister than mere religion.

You don't see Americans wading into warfare for the glory of the Lord God Almighty, they wade in for oil and other scarce mineral resources. In many ways this is worse, because at least your run of the mill Islamic terrorist has the conviction in his own religion, your average American is simply committed to money.

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Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone

Im afraid that is so much horse**** rA. The "Christian Right" as you put it are part of what I had previously described as political fundamentalism, but the religion is predominantly an excuse to connect to / gain support of the rednecks in the community. The objectives are far more sinister than mere religion.

You don't see Americans wading into warfare for the glory of the Lord God Almighty, they wade in for oil and other scarce mineral resources. In many ways this is worse, because at least your run of the mill Islamic terrorist has the conviction in his own religion, your average American is simply committed to money.

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You might think that. Your opinion. To me we are closer to agreeing than it may seem.
Just semantics really. You forget I attended my granddaughters U.S. ‘graduation’ some years ago. A greater exercise in brainwashing I have yet to see...salute the flag, kneel to God, place your hand over your heart and recite. At five. Really?

Just semantics really. Like the Christian Right, the Taliban are just as political as they are religious and have the same aims of geo political dominance.

I agree with most of what you’ve written, but it’s fine lines. I’m honestly equally critical of both, but they are both just working with what they’ve got and in the meantime it’s ordinary people who suffer.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Lily Allen! Oh ffs...give me some credit.

As regards your hooliganism analogy. You’d have a point if I’d ever suggested that ‘equal weight’ should be given to all forms of fundamentalist inspired terrorism...but I haven’t. All I’ve said is that Muslim’s do not have the monopoly where fundamentalism is concerned.
Maybe it’s the accountant in you that led you to seek to quantify...but I’m actually not sure you’ve done anything other than state the bloody obvious.

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Well you aint apologising on my behalf, that's for sure, XD

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Lily Allen! Oh ffs...give me some credit.

As regards your hooliganism analogy. You’d have a point if I’d ever suggested that ‘equal weight’ should be given to all forms of fundamentalist inspired terrorism...but I haven’t. All I’ve said is that Muslim’s do not have the monopoly where fundamentalism is concerned.
Maybe it’s the accountant in you that led you to seek to quantify...but I’m actually not sure you’ve done anything other than state the bloody obvious.

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You implied equal weight by not stating 'the bloody obvious' but fair enough if it is indeed bloody obvious to you and you are merely uneasy about saying it, I withdraw my Lilly Allen comment!

The whole 'in denial' thing (on many issues not just this one) is massively counterproductive and hinders resolution of many of the world's/the UK's thorniest problems IMO.

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

You implied equal weight by not stating 'the bloody obvious' but fair enough if it is indeed bloody obvious to you and you are merely uneasy about saying it, I withdraw my Lilly Allen comment!

The whole 'in denial' thing (on many issues not just this one) is massively counterproductive and hinders resolution of many of the world's/the UK's thorniest problems IMO.

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Who’s in denial...and what about?

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Who’s in denial...and what about?

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Waaaay too many people are in denial about way too many things. I offered Lilly Allen as a high profile example, with her assertion that UK should be 'ashamed' that it refuses ANY request from ANYONE to take residency in UK, in this case being in denial about both the volume and 'quality' of such an influx. Her rant that anyone with room to spare in their homes should welcome immigrants has been tempered somewhat since she was challenged to do so in her own ample residence.