O/T And we wonder why we trust Starmer

Friendly bit of advice.

This forum is a bit like a pub without beer. Old adage, never talk about politics or religion in a pub.

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Originally Posted by John2

Of course.

But that doesn't answer my question, am I misunderstanding your position?

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I see you called me gullible!

I answered you query on the NATO issue moving west.

I presume you mean diplomats!

Brexit ? I answered that!

What misinformation are you referring to?

I have said that I want this war over, for no one else to die and I don?t want future generations paying for it.

What else could my position be?

Here is my exact question:

Do you believe that informal assurances made by unelected representatives 35 years ago with a state that no longer exists are more significant than the sovereign rights of individual states with contemporary elected governments?

That appears to be the position you are adopting. If I'm misunderstanding, please clarify how.

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Originally Posted by frogmiller

I'm sorry too! The West promissed Russia that they would not expand NATO but it has!

You can read all of the USAID sponsored media that has currupted us and the truth and made it acceptable for the likes of Biden to profit. The gain of function Labs of which the USA have admitted to their being up to 30 labs. Do you remember the white flags of the media telling us all that Russia was targetting them, Yes I took that Shyte in as well.

The EU would not allow the Ukraine to join because they were seen to be corrupt. You talk of democracy in the Ukrain is laughable! Ukraine is where opposition parties are being banned! Imagine that in Britain. Labour takes Britian into war then banns the Tories!

The rules of NATO have been set for years and it is that 'NO' country which has any occupated territory should be allowed to join!

Do you think Putin would go any further?

What the Germans did to the Ukrainians and the Russians was no comparrison! The weather wlost that one for Hitler as well as the downfall and stupid activities of Benito Mussolini! But then again if the Russians had the same railway track gauge than the Germans it may have been a different story again.

The Irish reference was to prove that the overtaking of a country can be a peaceful one just like in Cyprus! They're not happy but they're not at war anymore!

I want the war over and it can be done through negotiations but others want to feed the war machine and we can pay the debt forever whilst generations die!

I may be in the minority on this one!

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I think the accusation that there is much corruption in Ukraine is a fair one but doesn't take into account that the country only emerged from Russian control in the 90s and is still an extremely immature democracy, but one that was recognised as running a free and fair election in 2018 and when accusing it of 'banning opposition parties' doesn't take into account that it is in a state of war and responding to an extreme situation. This article gives what I would say a fair summary of a complex situation:

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-dem...russia-1690505

Do I think Putin would go any further? Very hard to say, but I would be very fearful if I was in any of the former USSR controlled territories. The bottom line is that a sovereign nation is being invaded in Europe, it's territory seized and I disagree with you that we should turn a blind eye to that. Negotiation isn't even relevent if it isn't what the majority of the Ukrainian people living there want.

'The West' promised Russia it wouldn't expand NATO - John's taken that on, but I had to belly laugh!

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Originally Posted by John2

Here is my exact question:

Do you believe that informal assurances made by unelected representatives 35 years ago with a state that no longer exists are more significant than the sovereign rights of individual states with contemporary elected governments?

That appears to be the position you are adopting. If I'm misunderstanding, please clarify how.

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You know how to take a small issue out of an agreement to make your point.
The falling of the Berlin Wall was a catalyst for the fall of the demise of the Soviet Union. It was encouraged by an actor president funnily enough when Regan asked Gorbachev to pull down the wall. Not the most diplomatic request but it worked.
It went on to massive disarmament of an aging nuclear weapons stockpile.
Other manifestations happened including Poland?s independence which still survives today amongst others.

You seem hell bent on me saying that I want Ukraine to give things up!
At the end of every war the losers which are all parties declare a holt to killing one and other.

In The Ukraine since the war started there hasn?t been any elections and it seems that it is a reasonable thing because of the situation.

I want the war to stop and I want the best possible solution. I hope you want the same but if you think that the Russians will give everything back then you are going to be disappointed.

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Originally Posted by ragingpup

I think the accusation that there is much corruption in Ukraine is a fair one but doesn't take into account that the country only emerged from Russian control in the 90s and is still an extremely immature democracy, but one that was recognised as running a free and fair election in 2018 and when accusing it of 'banning opposition parties' doesn't take into account that it is in a state of war and responding to an extreme situation. This article gives what I would say a fair summary of a complex situation:

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-dem...russia-1690505

Do I think Putin would go any further? Very hard to say, but I would be very fearful if I was in any of the former USSR controlled territories. The bottom line is that a sovereign nation is being invaded in Europe, it's territory seized and I disagree with you that we should turn a blind eye to that. Negotiation isn't even relevent if it isn't what the majority of the Ukrainian people living there want.

'The West' promised Russia it wouldn't expand NATO - John's taken that on, but I had to belly laugh!

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Poland and other countries that left the Soviet Union don?t have the same issues.

If another party was in place which was more sympathetic to the thoughts of Moscow and an election was held then the people could decide no?

There is no alternative now!

The orange uprising was sponsored by who?

Raging would you fight for the Ukraine?

John would you give your life for that bread basket nation that is being bought up by foreign companies?

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Originally Posted by Millmoordays

Friendly bit of advice.

This forum is a bit like a pub without beer. Old adage, never talk about politics or religion in a pub.

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What would make people fight?

The Cutlers arms was the first place in Rotherham where you could sign up to fight for your country.

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Originally Posted by frogmiller

Raging would you fight for the Ukraine?

John would you give your life for that bread basket nation that is being bought up by foreign companies?

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Makes me wonder why the armed forces bother .

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Originally Posted by crashbang

Makes me wonder why the armed forces bother .

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There are only 77k in the army.

How long do you think they?d last in the Ukraine?