O/T Democracy

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Originally Posted by great_fire

It's 2019, most people get their news from the internet and the TV, almost all of those sources are left-leaning.

Stop living in the past, newspapers have very little influence now.

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25 million people read either a newspaper, or the online version of a newspaper everyday.

https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/uk-ne...ip-2018-pamco/

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Originally Posted by tony260674

**** me that's a stretch and I don't believe you could possibly think that.
I feel sorry for Boris I really do, he has finally got the gig he has always wanted but he has inherited a total ****storm that he is not qualified to deal with. He has become obsessed with following Cummings who knows **** all about running a country, has no allegiances to anything but is an expert in the politics of division and that is what we are left with. His methods are straight out of the Trump playbook of playing to the furthest faction of your base and alienating the other side.
This whole issue was always one that could have been settled by a great British compromise. It is what this country has always been good at. There was a vote and we need to respect the result whether we liked it or not, but it was very close and caused friction within the country. At this point it would have been possible to find a compromise, probably along the lines of leaving the EU, getting rid of the political institutions but keeping some of the economic institutions in order to avoid the potential crash to the economy, reassure the markets and give us time to solve the Irish question. This would have meant that all options would have been open for the medium and long term and had the added advantage of being what the large majority of the leave campaigners were selling during the campaign. The large majority of the country would have been satisfied and it would have marginalized the extremists at both ends who are never going to get what they want as their options are unpalatable to so many. We could then have got on with arguing about the important things in our daily lives such as sorting out our unbalanced economy, what we want for the NHS for the next generation, reducing crime/drugs on our streets, the list in endless.
Blaming parliament for our problems is ridiculous because when we leave the EU, Parliament is what we are left with. The leaders of the 2 main parties have been weak all the way through and I am convinced that had we had sensible and strong leaders on each side, this compromise would have been reached 2 years ago.
I am now left in a political no mans land. I certainly don't want a no deal but I think we should respect the referendum result. I would never vote Tory as I simply agree with almost nothing they do, I can't vote for Corbyn as although I certainly don't believe all the shyte in the newspapers, his ideas are far too left leaning for me and I can't vote Lib Dem as they are advocating ignoring the referendum which doesn't sit well either.
Thus WILL get worse before it gets better.

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Good analysis here Tony. I'm interested in which ideas of Corbyn's are too left leaning? Good to know where we are losing votes.

Who would be your ideal leader to step up?

But why make it so complicated Wanchai because the notion of tabling a number of options for leaving is in my view unworkable. We'd spend three years debating the wording and then ultimately still falling out because no one could agree it. Some MP's refuse to even entertain some democratic options

Keep it simple. Abide by the vote and make a clean break. Then 'deals' can be negotiated in the weeks and months afterwards which is what the real strategy from Boris is. Agreements can then be made where both parties have a level playing field rather than grossly skewed in favour of the EU.

I accept it has risks but to try and agree a decent deal before we leave is now unworkable in my opinion.
I know you won't agree but I just thought I'd try and explain why some people think a no deal exit is the correct thing to do. But just to clarify I mean no deal before we exit but then I'm all for a deal post exiting. I'm not suggesting we sever all ties with out Euro cousins forever

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This is how I see it Flour. If Brexit were to be seen as a political philosophy it has not got unifying party to drive it forward. Brexit is a cross party ideology that has fallen into a political void. Our political parties are grouped around a different set of values. We cannot deal with brexit in our current parliamentary structure.

Groups across different parties are vying for leadership of brexit but are operating within the confines of their party. The analogy is a football team going into a season without a manager with 3 players pushing to influence tactics after the game has kicked off.

So May spends 2 years creating a deal that no one likes. Parliament votes it down. And we blame MPs for the stalemate.

Yet, in truth, the stalemate is an unavoidable consequence of going into a referendum on a simplistic premise without knowing what leaving looks like or a plan for how we'd implement it.




Why make it so complicated Wanchai because the notion of tabling a number of options for leaving is in my view unworkable. We'd spend three years debating the wording and then ultimately still falling out because no one could agree it. Some MP's refuse to even entertain some democratic options

Keep it simple. Abide by the vote and make a clean break. Then 'deals' can be negotiated in the weeks and months afterwards which is what the real strategy from Boris is. Agreements can then be made where both parties have a level playing field rather than grossly skewed in favour of the EU.

I accept it has risks but to try and agree a decent deal before we leave is now unworkable in my opinion.
I know you won't agree but I just thought I'd try and explain why some people think a no deal exit is the correct thing to do. But just to clarify I mean no deal before we exit but then I'm all for a deal post exiting. I'm not suggesting we sever all ties with out Euro cousins forever

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Originally Posted by tony260674

**** me that's a stretch and I don't believe you could possibly think that.

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I actually did think that as I watched and heard it live. Not for one second did I think his remarks were anything other than correct.

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Originally Posted by BigLadonOS

I actually did think that as I watched and heard it live. Not for one second did I think his remarks were anything other than correct.

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Biglad, Cummings is running the show. Everything Johnson is saying has been tested with the tory base who they are worried will vote for the brexit party. They are not in the slightest bit interested in attracting the centre like Cameron and May. I had no problem at all with the attorney general, he was feisty and combative, he criticized the opposition and the parliament itself as he should he is a tory minister but Johnson went much further. If you look back at Johnson's speeches over the past 15 years he never spoke like this before and he never spoke like this during the leadership campaign.

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Originally Posted by flourbasher

But why make it so complicated Wanchai because the notion of tabling a number of options for leaving is in my view unworkable. We'd spend three years debating the wording and then ultimately still falling out because no one could agree it. Some MP's refuse to even entertain some democratic options

Keep it simple. Abide by the vote and make a clean break. Then 'deals' can be negotiated in the weeks and months afterwards which is what the real strategy from Boris

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The thing is 'No Deal' to trade under WTO terms is the most complex costly route imaginable. But you know my views so wont bore you further.

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Originally Posted by BigLadonOS

On an earlier exchange I was saying that people make a call on what is written down and can read it one way while all the time the writer meant it another. This is one of those odd times where the spoken word can also be down to how a person reads in to what is being said. I think Boris was saying that Jo Cox, who believed in democracy would not have been happy with how things stand today and her memory should not be used in an attempt to block democracy but to honour it instead.

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Yes we know
Continuing to say it BL doesn't make it true, much as you would like it to
Don't think you're convincing anyone, well perhaps yourself

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Originally Posted by WanChaiMiller

The thing is 'No Deal' to trade under WTO terms is the most complex costly route imaginable. But you know my views so wont bore you further.

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Says you!

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Originally Posted by Exiletyke

Yes we know
Continuing to say it BL doesn't make it true, much as you would like it to
Don't think you're convincing anyone, well perhaps yourself

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I could not give a flying *** what you or anyone else thinks mate because I know what I said even if you dont.