O/T:- Trump Presidency 2.0 [hic sunt dracones]

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Originally Posted by Bohinen

Indeed. Pensioners can't afford to heat their homes and we're debating who should be in a European army.

'President Zelenskyy is a hero, who has stood up to Putin?s aggression, and led his country?s defence against their barbaric and illegal invasion over the last three years', said Priti Patel, yesterday.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...er-ukraine-war

It's this kind of nonsense that is driving former Labour voters further into the arms of Farage. I know Patel said it, but I don't see this as different to what Starmer has said. As Nige points out, it wasn't very wise of Zelensky(y) to visit the POTUS dressed in Action Man fatigues.

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Well POTUS doesn't seem to mind Musk dressing like a hobo, and every other world leader seems to be able to understand why he does it without taking offence, so I will guess whatever Farage said was his usual fabricated outrage.

Out of curiosity why do you object to the description of Zelensky? Hero might be over-doing it - obviously the heroes are the ones fighting the Russians - but he certainly did show real bravery by staying in Kyiv.

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Originally Posted by Elite_Pie

That was the point.

If you haven't got them but need them you can borrow from (or lend to) a mate.

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Yep but what happens when your best mate turns his back on you when the school bully turns up? An individual or a group of individuals should always be able to look after themselves or predators come sniffing. An unfortunate fact of life.

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Originally Posted by BigFatPie

Yes support for a European army is unsurprisingly lower in the UK than pretty much anywhere in Europe, but we are talking about whether we think it?s a good idea rather than the possibility of it happening or people agreeing to it.

Duplication of resources is just my way of describing the countries of Europe each having to buy their own set of planes, tanks and boats and not benefiting from potential economies of scale rather than spreading their hardware more efficiently.

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I don't think it's a good idea and I don't think people would agree to it.

Regarding hardware, everyone having their own kit is not necessarily a bad thing. They all have different characteristics and some may turn out to be more useful than others in any situation. Having 7 or 8 cointries making the similar stuff increases innovation. Different countries habe different needs too. For example, Swedish fighter jets are designed to take off from an 16 metre wide x 800 metre long stretch of road, and can be refueled and maintained from a single container sized cabin, because being so close to Russia they presume their air bases will be knocked out before they have a chance to take off.

You also never know when you're gonna need domestic production - Rheinmettal makes the best in class gear in a lot of categories so it might make sense to order everything from them, but what if AfD get in and ban them from making stuff for export? That might sound farfetched, but ten years ago so would saying that the USA might abandon NATO. Not to mention that having local armament factories is a good source of labour for the domestic workforce.

Would this European army have helped us defeat Argentina when they invaded the Falklands? I don't imagine the Spanish would have been keen to join in. And that also raises the issue of Gibraltar. The truth is, we're on our own, we have to fight our own battles. The US is an important ally because of their massive nuclear arsenal, and their support is far more important to us than that of the likes of Belgium, which is a country we invented, as it happens.

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Originally Posted by SmiffyPie

Yep but what happens when your best mate turns his back on you when the school bully turns up?

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It shows your choice of 'best mate' was very wrong.

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Originally Posted by drillerpie

Regarding hardware, everyone having their own kit is not necessarily a bad thing.

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I'm sure if you focus entirely on defence it's a good thing.

But if you look where those billions you spent on defence could have been better spent to solve some big domestic problems, maybe not so good.

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Originally Posted by Bohinen

Would this European army have helped us defeat Argentina when they invaded the Falklands? I don't imagine the Spanish would have been keen to join in. And that also raises the issue of Gibraltar. The truth is, we're on our own, we have to fight our own battles. The US is an important ally because of their massive nuclear arsenal, and their support is far more important to us than that of the likes of Belgium, which is a country we invented, as it happens.

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It's starting to remind me of "The World is Not Enough". The US was an important ally to us and the free world. Between Trump, Musk and Putin they've probably realised that the can take over whatever they want, just keep up the social media propoganda to dupe the gullible American public. Poor Zelensky is the poor punchball. Everything he now says or does will be twisted to make him look bad. He's on the ground and Trump, Vance and Musk are happy to put the boot in. Putin meanwhile gets off scot free. I mean, it's not his fault that his tanks ended up carrying their exercise into Ukraine.

Trump and his cronies know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

This isn't a question of Europe stepping up, it is all who consider themselves a part of the free world and they may well need to consider collective sanctions against the USA, at least until Trump has gone.

Not felt this concerned since Cuba :s

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Originally Posted by drillerpie

Well POTUS doesn't seem to mind Musk dressing like a hobo, and every other world leader seems to be able to understand why he does it without taking offence, so I will guess whatever Farage said was his usual fabricated outrage.

Out of curiosity why do you object to the description of Zelensky? Hero might be over-doing it - obviously the heroes are the ones fighting the Russians - but he certainly did show real bravery by staying in Kyiv.

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Because I don't buy the propaganda that he is right and Putin is wrong. It's way too simplistic. No-one is a hero, they are fighting a pointless war that will achieve nothing.

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Originally Posted by Bohinen

Because I don't buy the propaganda that he is right and Putin is wrong. It's way too simplistic. No-one is a hero, they are fighting a pointless war that will achieve nothing.

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Do you buy the 'propaganda' the Putin is wrong?

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Originally Posted by Bohinen

Because I don't buy the propaganda that he is right and Putin is wrong. It's way too simplistic. No-one is a hero, they are fighting a pointless war that will achieve nothing.

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Pointless war???? What should Ukraine have done when Russia invaded in your opinion?