Careless Tories!

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Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds

Yes and others in Europe have realised their error and are slamming the door shut fast. Germany/Denmark/Sweden. Even the EU is now muttering a Rwanda plan. Half of what we get now, is because Europe is saying no and they look for the next sucker.
Our quality of life is falling through the floor fast, like other places in europe has
I know its convinient to just blame the Tories, but the reality is the West is failing at this. Amazing how they steer clear of the rich middle east countries.

The USA? I think you need to educate yourself chap. It is seriously falling apart there. The left allowed it, the south rebelled and passed them on to the left areas.
NEW YORK ALONE- The 2024-25 Executive Budget Financial Plan indicates the State plans to spend $4.3 billion between State Fiscal Year (SFY) 2022-23 through SFY 2025-26 for emergency spending related to people seeking asylum in the United States. Emergency spending for asylum seekers totaled $713.0 million through March 31, 2024.
Who is suffering in New York? Yep, it;'s the legal poor migrant communities, who have seen their shelters/ food banks/ housing disappear over night. You may not like my videos, but you really should do some digging yourself.

One for Maddy, seeing as he seems to not mind the migration. Seeing as Gert has risen through the power bands in Holland , is everything ok there?
The Morrocan drug gangs are now said to be bigger than the Italian mafia and Antwerp the drug base of Europe.

Immigration comes with positives and negatives.
As it stands the negatives by far out weigh the positives. Both economically and socially. Crime/ freedom of speech/ housing/ health / services are imploding.

The draw bridge needs raing fast, some breathing time gained and a re think.

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First I'll approach three things from TTR's post.

1. They don't "steer clear" of the rich middle eastern countries. Those countries won't have them. They won't have them because they are either not Muslim or they're the wrong "flavour" of Muslim.

2. The influence of the Mocro-Mafia, as they are known, has been hit. A dozen or so of the "top honchos" recently got sent down for long stretches. Most for between 15 and 20 years. Three of them got whole life sentences. When we first introduced "whole life" it was meant to be that, till you die. That was deemed by the EHCR to be both cruel and illegal as it removed any hope from prisoners. We changed the Law. They now get one chance, after serving 25 years, to appeal for parole. If granted they are out on licence. If refused, that's it, the rest of your natural inside.

3. "Gert" (his name is Geert) was elected on an ultra right wing manifesto including things like banning Islam, banning the Hijab, banning the Koran. Those things were, and still are a) illegal under Dutch Law and b) go against international agreements the Netherlands has signed up to. He has dropped ALL of those proposed policies. The current situation is that 4 parties have been talking since the November election to each other to attempt to form a coalition. An artificial deadline is looming. Wilders feels he HAS to have a really strong approach to immigration as that is the one policy that saw him become the largest party in Parliament. The problem he's facing is that, to satisfy his voters, he NEEDS stringent plans. Countering him is Peter Omtzigt's NSC. A party devoted to Law and Order. Talks look like breaking down on the immigration policy as Geert doesn't want to water down any further and Peter says he has to as parts of what geert wants are still illegal.... I said "new election" when the results were announced. I think I will be proven right.

Why is an influx of immigrants deemed necessary? Partly for jobs the indigenous population won't do. Partly to fill staff shortages in the NHS. However, it's big business doing most of the pushing. Falling populations means less call for their goods and services. Rather than scaling their business to match the declining demand, they refuse to accept decline in turnover and profits. They push politicians to keep population levels high. Also, declining population means less working people supporting ever more pensioners. The "tax dollars" have to come from somewhere. Research shows, Swale and GP have commented on this earlier in the thread, that immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out. Ergo, both big business (aka the rich, the 1%) believe they NEED immigration. That's why it's happening.

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Originally Posted by swaledale

Mm so all the research which shows that immigrants make a net gain to the countries finances are wrong then? I mean they only use evidence rather than your bigoted, simplistic take on things!

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Basically, yes. Especially when you’re using data from a different era

However, to evidence that I don’t just disagree with you for disagreeings sake, something that you said a the subject of immigration many moons ago holds true - the ship has sailed. As such, although I agree or see the point of what TTR says, he’s wasting his breath

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Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds

mmmmmmmmmm, morally wrong for the natives, but both areas were virtually empty and colonisation ensued.
I don't think Europe and the UK is exactly a comparison, seeing as 745 million live here
So how many is enough? When the economy collapses or fighting breaks out?

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I’m not sure which part of ‘it was a tongue in cheek comment’ you missed.
I’m also not sure, given the plans you’ve told us all about, whether it will be you or your intended who will be labelled by your dreaded ‘i - word’ in the not too distant future.

Beyond that, I don’t see the ‘migrant crisis’ disappearing any time soon. As a result of all the conflict, corrupt government and climate crisis issues in the world I imagine there are going to be a great many more displaced and dispossessed people.

Rather than adopt your ‘drawbridge’ mentality I believe we need to track down the loathsome people smugglers and act together to create some plan/formula via some ‘joined up’ thought from the wealthier countries in the world. That’s been made a little harder - in Western Europe at least - by Brexit, but it’s still possible. You and I differ…probably irrevocably. It’s an immensely difficult situation but a little compassion on your part and from those you support wouldn’t go amiss…imo.

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Originally Posted by swaledale

Mm so all the research which shows that immigrants make a net gain to the countries finances are wrong then? I mean they only use evidence rather than your bigoted, simplistic take on things!

The findings of research done by University College London show that immigrants to the UK who arrived since 2000, and for have made consistently positive fiscal contributions regardless of their area of origin. Between 2001 and 2011 recent immigrants from the A10 countries contributed to the fiscal system about 12% more than they took out, with a net fiscal contribution of about £5 billion. At the same time the net fiscal contributions of recent European immigrants from the rest of the EU totalled £15bn, with fiscal payments about 64% higher than transfers received. Immigrants from outside the EU countries made a net fiscal contribution of about £5.2 billion, thus paying into the system about 3% more than they took out. In contrast, over the same period, natives made an overall negative fiscal contribution of £616.5 billion. The net fiscal balance of overall immigration to the UK between 2001 and 2011 amounts therefore to a positive net contribution of about £25 billion, over a period over which the UK has run an overall budget deficit.

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Ah but I looked at data from the mid 15th century which clearly demonstrated that Saracens immigration was net financially negative, although the armed forces were strengthened 😀

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Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone

Ah but I looked at data from the mid 15th century which clearly demonstrated that Saracens immigration was net financially negative, although the armed forces were strengthened ��

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... and they formed a bloody good rugby club

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

I’m not sure which part of ‘it was a tongue in cheek comment’ you missed.
I’m also not sure, given the plans you’ve told us all about, whether it will be you or your intended who will be labelled by your dreaded ‘i - word’ in the not too distant future.

Beyond that, I don’t see the ‘migrant crisis’ disappearing any time soon. As a result of all the conflict, corrupt government and climate crisis issues in the world I imagine there are going to be a great many more displaced and dispossessed people.

Rather than adopt your ‘drawbridge’ mentality I believe we need to track down the loathsome people smugglers and act together to create some plan/formula via some ‘joined up’ thought from the wealthier countries in the world. That’s been made a little harder - in Western Europe at least - by Brexit, but it’s still possible. You and I differ…probably irrevocably. It’s an immensely difficult situation but a little compassion on your part and from those you support wouldn’t go amiss…imo.

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Regrettably, here (uniquely possibly) you and the Tories (although Labour too) are in the same dreamland, IMO the boats won’t be stopped by taking out the smuggling gangs, I’m afraid, like narcotics,you’re trying to kill a many headed (and regenerating) serpent

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

Regrettably, here (uniquely possibly) you and the Tories (although Labour too) are in the same dreamland, IMO the boats won’t be stopped by taking out the smuggling gangs, I’m afraid, like narcotics,you’re trying to kill a many headed (and regenerating) serpent

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Slightly odd and defeatist response, imo, AF.
I understand the Hydra reference however I don’t understand how ‘taking out the smuggling gangs’ isn’t going to stop the boats…eventually.
The fights against illegal drugs, people smuggling and, for that matter, cancer certainly may appear, in your words, as if ‘you’re trying to kill a many headed (and regenerating) serpent’ at times, however the answer in all three cases is to have a well resourced, properly coordinated and unified strategy and response. Where people smuggling is concerned, Brexit - somewhat ironically given its populist ambition - has made that much more difficult.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Slightly odd and defeatist response, imo, AF.
I understand the Hydra reference however I don’t understand how ‘taking out the smuggling gangs’ isn’t going to stop the boats…eventually.
The fights against illegal drugs, people smuggling and, for that matter, cancer certainly may appear, in your words, as if ‘you’re trying to kill a many headed (and regenerating) serpent’ at times, however the answer in all three cases is to have a well resourced, properly coordinated and unified strategy and response. Where people smuggling is concerned, Brexit - somewhat ironically given its populist ambition - has made that much more difficult.

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Just IMO rA but if calling people smuggling and narcotics as a war that will be won by the bad guys then I’ll go with ‘defeatist’. Cancer isn’t the same imo it’s a bad analogy. Brexit has nothing or at least very little to do with it,do you think any of the protagonists give a **** about Brexit?

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Originally Posted by Andy_Faber

Just IMO rA but if calling people smuggling and narcotics as a war that will be won by the bad guys then I’ll go with ‘defeatist’. Cancer isn’t the same imo it’s a bad analogy. Brexit has nothing or at least very little to do with it,do you think any of the protagonists give a **** about Brexit?

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Sorry, think you’ve misunderstood, or it may just be my ‘bad analogy’.
My point was that all three represent ‘evils’ that we fear, things that represent your ‘regenerating many headed serpent’.
What they have in common is that the way to conquer all three is through determination, unity, cooperation, appropriate strategy and funding.
I agree and doubt your ‘bad guy protagonists’ do give a ‘**** about Brexit’…unfortunately, where people smuggling is concerned, those combating such protagonists have had the cooperation and unified strategy removed as a result of the antagonism generated by Brexit…IMO.

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Originally Posted by ramAnag

Sorry, think you’ve misunderstood, or it may just be my ‘bad analogy’.
My point was that all three represent ‘evils’ that we fear, things that represent your ‘regenerating many headed serpent’.
What they have in common is that the way to conquer all three is through determination, unity, cooperation, appropriate strategy and funding.
I agree and doubt your ‘bad guy protagonists’ do give a ‘**** about Brexit’…unfortunately, where people smuggling is concerned, those combating such protagonists have had the cooperation and unified strategy removed as a result of the antagonism generated by Brexit…IMO.

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I actually meant both/all theee are different serpents.