The end of Danny Graham ......

Last night compounded the issues with him. 13 touches, not one completed pass to a team-mate. Nobody, even his biggest fan can tell me that is good enough. He suffers down to our massive lack of creativity. Every single ball Bennett put in last night was pathetic. Like it is every single week bar none. Puts in loads of effort, end product is appalling. Not one ever ends up on our strikers head.
Graham has to be out of this side, he is doing nothing to get in. as nice as it was he put him self forward to play in the Senior cup the other week to regain fitness, his performance level is so far down what it should be, its worrying he is getting considered. I would give Samuel a chance. But before that, I would play Armstrong. As as CF as we simply have no-one else in form.

Dack is a tough one. Before anything, he was rubbish last night. But the one thing he did, was create our goal, with that pass. which seperates him from the other players. He can do nothing, but still produce that one bit of magic. But he really does need dropping. Now we have seen Holtby, and what he can do, we can get Dack on the bench and show him if he turns in displays like last night and Sat, he will be sat next to TM on the bench. Rothwell will never be the answer. But I would have him in the side over Gallagher.
Gallagher imo will be completely ruined as a footballer by xmas, by being at this football club with this manager. Who will do to him, what he did to Brereton. He was ruined last season. Like Samuel will be ruined. Like Gallagher will be.
Gally isn't a winger. You don't have to have seen a game of football to know that. Brereton isn't a winger. Playing him there last season destroyed his confidence. Then when it was at an all time low, he played him again....on the wing. Then just had no choice but to take him out of the side. TM caused that problem. Asking Brereton to be Danny Graham. Which he isnt. So when he doesnt get the same results, he shoves him onto a wing and says play there, amd perform. He wont, he isn't a winger. We only saw a glimpse of the real Brereton (we paid the money for) once, vrs Bolton. In a position that works for him, and he scored.
Same for Gallagher. Stuck up with a poor Dack, uninterested. Not supporting him in any way. No supply, Bennett knocking balls over his head. So he ends up being shoved to the right wing!! And guess what?? He flops big time. Like Brereton. His confidence (you can see) is drifting away with every passing week at this club.
I have this horrid feeling we have just signed a winger for £5m who simply isn't a winger. He wont carry on playing hiom up-front, like he did with Brereton (until may the final few games of the season when there is nothing to play for) so we are left with another striker brought in on money, that is another flop. We are carrying him, Brereton and Samule. All don't score, all end up being shoved onto a wing, all have had their confidence smashed. Annd to really compound the problems, DG is re-called after doing nothing all season, and puts in a display like that. Which wasnt helped by the fact he was given nothing. But that only going to keep happening while Bennett is playing. Who I am still waiting to see put once cross in that our striker can do anything with. I fear I will be sat here in 12 months still waiting.

The positives was undoubtedly Holtby, and Downing and Travis. The main issue with Holtby is our players wont be on the same level as him, and probably wont be able to make the runs he needs. He is a class above us, Forest and probably most other sides and players at this level. Will our players be able to improve or be good enough to see what he will try. 10 mins last night, he did more than anyone on both sides in 90 mins. Possibly a little too good for us, and could be wasted. Will TM have a clue where play him, and get the best out of him? That's a concern. And are the likes of Rothwell or Armstrong clever enough to make runs? They would both need to raise their heads as footballers in order to do that, and I am not sure they are able to change as players at this age.

For the record, I am not peed off we drew last night. They are 3rd. BUT ....they were crap on the night. Sorry I can waffle on about this and that, in the first 5 mins they looked like they'd rip us to bits. After that, they where so poor.
The LB will never ever have an easier night all season. Was their CH that brilliant> Or was DG just woeful? Looking at his other non performances this season, I'd say it was the latter. Their defence had it pretty easy. Apart from Armstrong, who got incredibly luck on our goal, but finished well. And when Holtby was on the pitch.
Sat we MUST drop BOTH Dack and Graham, who imo should not make the bench.

Another rotten apple, Johnson, I want out of the club. Evans can do his job, as cover. Downing is better, and can play instead.
Johnson was one of these little drunken pricks who was invloved in that fracas at Derby last week. He had to go and see TM on Sunday after not admitting it beforehand. He lives around the corner from the Derby training ground, is still clearly involved with them, and was out getting pissed midweek with his Derby terammates in a team building exercise. h insists he had left before the situation got to the point Tom Lawrence ended Keogh's career, by smashing into his teammates car, but you have to wonder. He didn't play a second last night, I really hope we don't see him again. We dont need that, and I feel he has brought nothing to our side.

Harsh but I cannot disagree with any of the above.

Well, I can.
I think a lot of it is drastic over-reaction.
Some of it is total tosh.
Holtby "too good for us"? He's been on the pitch for about an hour so far!!!
Gallagher actually had two really good games as the wide forward. He's been mediocre since, but it may be that he just needs the confidence that comes with a goal.
The suggestion that Mowbray has "ruined" players is completely fanciful. Brereton may come good; he may simply turn out to be a bum purchase. It happens.
Graham may be past it. That moment has to come. On the other hand, he's been written off twice before during his career with us.
The fact is, there is a real problem fitting all our forwards in. Yes, the answer MAY be to drop Graham and Dack, but let's be honest: if Mowbray did that and we had a game where lots of chances were missed, it would be because..."Mowbray dropped the two players most likely to score".
Another thing: one moment, Champs is saying virtually all our players are crap; the next he's implying they would be much better if they weren't managed by Mowbray!
We have a lot of new faces, and we have really struggled to find consistency, but we are in 12th place, four points outside a play-off spot.
It's hardly an end-of-the-world scenario.
God knows what Champs would be saying if he was a Stoke supporter, given that he has rubbished Forest, who are joint-third.

.....We are 12th. Forest are 3rd, and on the night where poor. Having just one shot. They came for a draw and had a comfortable night. I felt our good play should turn into 3 points. That said, I always felt we would get a point in this game. But I thought we'd get 3 vrs Luton. We are down 3 points I feel, but that happens. Breaking a side down, that was our problem in both games. Had we not played Graham, it may've been SG up front. And that probably would have been even worse. Like you say, he did have a few ok games there. And has gone down hill since. His confidence is dropping every week. But you can't see that? And you can't see that playing him right wing was not the answer? Tell me, what performance did you see on Tues from SG? I'm intrigued? It reminded me of Brereton last season. Painful to watch a lad lack so much confidence and played so out of position. It killed him. Or did you not see that happen last season? I did.
And you say it may not work out. Fair enough. Butvthos is another one. Our main signing over summer Aucks. Looking like being another flop. The signs are there already. And it's the same situation.
Graham, which even though you are trying, you agree. He isnt up to it. Another really poor display. Leaving Samuel. Who has always in his time here, struggled to make an impact with goals. That's another one. Wonder why all our strikers are not scoring goals? Maybe the lack of service? Maybe they are being asked to score goals with no service?
Graham is the most experienced of them all. And he is proving he can't get going. He can't do anything with the lack of service. That's our main man. So by asking SG to perform, with the same poor service will result in one thing, SG confidence will drop. Like Brereton. And because they don't score, they get shoved onto a wing. Where they won't score. It was a problem last season. Its a bigger one now. It's not so much the forwards. It's our style of play. And people like Bennett being the out ball. Who can't put one cross in 90 mins.
I feel we needed a new way of playing, to suit the players we have. And we are doing what we did with an inform Dack & Graham. Who are both massively out of form.

Sorry ...And if Gallagher needs this goal so much, Which I full agree he does, will be get playing right wing? Brereton never got his got his goal He badly needed playing wide right. So I find it highly doubtful SG will. What will happen is, his confidence will drop. Like it did on Tues. You could see it. Like with Brereton.
Who I felt got ruined being here last season.
I'll tell you another reason he won't score. Because his manager brought a bloke inti the side who hasn't done a thing this season. And when he played, he didn't complete one pass, and only touched the ball 13 times. Spending most of his time on his backside.

Champs - we dominated the last twenty minutes. I saw no sign of a lack of confidence or enthusiasm.
We could easily have beaten a team who'd have been top if they'd won.
Our shooting has largely been crap, but I think you're going much too far. Even playing in fits and start, we're within touching distance of he play-off spots.
Nothing we've heard from the players themselves confirms that their confidence is shattered. I just don't know where you're getting it from.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AucklandRover

Champs - we dominated the last twenty minutes. I saw no sign of a lack of confidence or enthusiasm.
We could easily have beaten a team who'd have been top if they'd won.
Our shooting has largely been crap, but I think you're going much too far. Even playing in fits and start, we're within touching distance of he play-off spots.
Nothing we've heard from the players themselves confirms that their confidence is shattered. I just don't know where you're getting it from.

---

Did you see a confident Sam Gallagher the other night. Or on Sat?
Did you see a confident Dack? On Sat or the other night?
Did you see a confident Graham the other night? basic stats for him - 0 shots. On or off target. 0 headers won. 13 touches. 0 completed passes. But yeah, other than all of that, I felt he was superb and looked really up for it, like he has all season. I'm completely wrong. I hope he plays Sat. He certainly warrants a place.

The last 8 mins we played well. Not the last 20. I don't agree.
We played well once Holtby was introduced. Which was way too late to impact the game enough in 8 mins. Had him and Samuel been on from the 60 mins mark we would likely have won.

You have an opinion that is not 100% positive, and still be completely correct. Its not a knee jerk, I thought Forest looked very average on the night. Came for a draw, and got one pretty comfortably. Despite us playing well in certain area's. Up front we looked completely un-confident. I wouldnt mind if we created a load of chances and missed them. Our striker had no headers on target. No shots on or off target, and zero created for him. Like it was on sat, but with Gallagher. who also looks shot to pieces. Not helped by the fact he was dumped out wide like Brereton was last season. But of course, none of that happened. Brereton is full of confidence, as you can see. Like Graham is, like Dack is, like Gallagher is. Everything is fine.

By the way. I would never expect a player to come out and say I am un-confident, and don't want to play. Why would they?
Body language can tell you so much though. I feel Gallaghers body language shows he is struggling.
I saw this exact thing happen last season. Brereton gradually looked less and less confident. To the point vrs Boro he was played out wide during his worst spell. He was booked in the warm up- and went on to have an awful day, and we lost 0-1. He barley played after that, and was taken out of the squad altogether. And only returned for the Bolton game late in the season, when there was nothing to play for and we'd already stayed up, Bolton had already dropped. What I am seeing now, is the exact same process. Told to be Danny Graham, and given the same shocking poor service. Then dumped out onto the wing and told to perform. Which will destroy his confidence. Will he get this goal he needs playing right wing? Did Brereton? We already know the answer to this question. we have been through already, when we spent last years budget. We cant keep throwing all our money away on players who aren't wingers.
And if he doesn't know what to do with all these forward players, surley you can see my concern over Holtby. Will he figure out a place for him, where he won't be a complete waste? I/m not convinced. As no matter what happens. Mr Dack starts regardless of form or attitude. And our style of play certainly wont change. Where does a classy player fit into all this? And will we manage to find a position? Remeber aswell, you where lukewarm about him coming in, fearing we would suffer not playing Buckley. Not sure a kid would thrive in this dis-joined side, I think we will struggle to fit a quality player in. And yes, in 8 mins, he stood out like a sore thumb. A step up from anything we have had in a long long time. And better than Dack. Can he figure out a way of playing both, is he brave enough to do that? Or are we looking at another one being dumped out onto the wing?

*booed not booked!!

No - a lot of the stuff, I don't know what you mean.
A month ago, Gallagher looked to be making a good fist of the wide forward job.
In addition, you also criticise Mowbray for expecting Gallagher to be Graham. If you don't want him as the wider forward OR the centre-forward, where DO you want him to play?
My main point is, we matched Forest in every department, and they are joint-third.
Our crossing and shooting have been poor, but on Tuesday, we had 22 attempts on goal, six of them on target. We also had over 60% of the possession.
You seem to be saying we are hopeless - largely because of Mowbray.
I'm saying we are a work in progress - fitting in lots of new signings; trying to play a more possession-based game; exploring the best combinations (especially up front); making the gradual transition from some of the key players over the last two-three seasons; etc. But, despite all that, we are still comfortably placed in the league.
Mowbray has got some things wrong; they all do. Brereton may well turn out to be a massive bloomer. That happens to every club - even those at the top level. But are we in Stoke's position? No.
Those are the reasons I think your reactions are completely over the top