O/T:- Ukraine [Incorporating 'Congrats to Russia' thread]

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Originally Posted by Jampie

None of which comes remotely close to confirming your original claim, which was, and I quote:

"especially after all of those people were burned alive by Nazi Ukrainians in that massacre in 2014."

So other than managing to take the thread wildly off topic, as always you've achieved absolutely nothing with a very large number of paragraphs.

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Yes. That's one of the reasons why I personally don't debate with him. He's not a good faith debater.

He seamlessly shifted from uncritically repeating the misleading propaganda he sees on RT and his pro-Russia propaganda films, to 'paragon of journalistic integrity' disappointed because I only cited the part of the report relevant to the conversation at the time.

That's in the same way as he switched from congratulating Russia on its invasion and annexations to 'give peace a chance' a while back, when it was convenient.

He's also happy to rely on organisations like the UN and EU court of human rights if it allows him to quote them criticising Ukraine in their reports, ignoring the fact that Ukranians want to move closer to Europe precisely to have less corruption, more political pluralism, independent judiciary etc., while his answer is to give them more Russia - which means the opposite of all those things (Ukraine’s judiciary with all its problems still ranks better than Russia's by the way).

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Originally Posted by drillerpie

Yes. That's one of the reasons why I personally don't debate with him. He's not a good faith debater.

He seamlessly shifted from uncritically repeating the misleading propaganda he sees on RT and his pro-Russia propaganda films, to 'paragon of journalistic integrity' disappointed because I only cited the part of the report relevant to the conversation at the time.

That's in the same way as he switched from congratulating Russia on its invasion and annexations to 'give peace a chance' a while back, when it was convenient.

He's also happy to rely on organisations like the UN and EU court of human rights if it allows him to quote them criticising Ukraine in their reports, ignoring the fact that Ukranians want to move closer to Europe precisely to have less corruption, more political pluralism, independent judiciary etc., while his answer is to give them more Russia - which means the opposite of all those things (Ukraine’s judiciary with all its problems still ranks better than Russia's by the way).

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When you say “Ukrainians want to move closer to Europe”, which Ukrainians do you mean? Or do you actually believe that Ukraine is politically homogeneous as you’re implying?

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Originally Posted by Jampie

I doubt it, and I certainly won't be leaving Kremlin lies up here unchallenged.

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You are just feeding his lust to post lies and crap - I’m amazed that you can’t see that!!

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Originally Posted by BanjoPie

You are just feeding his lust to post lies and crap - I’m amazed that you can’t see that!!

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If you check even recent history you can see he took a break recently during which I didn't post in this thread at all. I returned in response to another one of his propaganda posts.

He also began posting in this thread before I did.

So to my perception it's actually the opposite of what you're saying. If this thread was just full of balanced views or links to actual news articles etc I would have basically no reason to post here. But he would.

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Originally Posted by andy6025

When you say “Ukrainians want to move closer to Europe”, which Ukrainians do you mean? Or do you actually believe that Ukraine is politically homogeneous as you’re implying?

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This is another bad faith argument. Ukraine is a democracy. No democracy is ever perfectly politically homogeneous on any big issue. But on balance, support in Ukraine for reducing corruption is high, and so is support for moving closer to Europe.

And so is support for continuing their defensive war against Russia's aggression.

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Originally Posted by Jampie

This is another bad faith argument. Ukraine is a democracy. No democracy is ever perfectly politically homogeneous on any big issue. But on balance, support in Ukraine for reducing corruption is high, and so is support for moving closer to Europe.

And so is support for continuing their defensive war against Russia's aggression.

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Ukraine is a democracy? Are you not aware of what happened in Ukraine?

Remember the Jan 6 attempt to overthrow the government in the US? Well the Ukraine had their own version of that. Only in their version the mob succeeded. That’s right. The constitutionally elected government, which by all accounts won a free and fair election, was chased out of town. Not like in a cartoon, but for real. A lot of people died - cops, goons and protesters. And the mob won. The democratically elected government did NOT want closer ties with Europe. The trade agreement they were offered from Europe was bad. By no means was it going to make Ukraine prosperous, and it had clauses that would bring Ukraine into nato via the back door - something the majority of Ukrainians did NOT want at the time. Furthermore, Russia was offering a much better deal with heavily subsidized gas prices and loans.

Remember how in the January 6th riots Donald Trump was inciting the mob? Well in the Ukraine they had the US under Secretary of State Victoria Nuland inciting their mob. That’s right, a foreign government was meddling in Ukraine’s affairs and “hacking” their political process. And it was the United States doing it. Quell surprise!!! Nuland even got caught hand picking the new government in a phone call.

And once they chased the democratically elected government out of town, what did this new hand picked government do? They rescinded laws that protected minority languages in Ukraine, such as Hungarians, Polish, Romanian and... you guessed it, Russian!

And where is democracy in Ukraine now? Well, Ukraine banned its largest opposition political party, among many others. A free press is required for a thriving democracy, right? Not in Ukraine! ALL of Ukraine’s media is now under state control. ALL of it. Are the governors of the oblasts (provinces) at least elected by the people? Nope! They are appointed by Zalensky. At least people can freely leave the country right if they don’t like it? Think again! Men aged 18-60 are banned from leaving the country. Instead, unless they get an exception sertificate they are drafted whether they have prior military experience or not.

And we just read the state of the legal apparatus in Odessa.

Some democracy!

It doesn’t do what it says on the tin.

Edit: corrected a word that predictive text got wrong.

Andy, meet NCM.

NCM, meet Andy. He's the guy who wants to enlighten us on how to critically parse propaganda.

Yeah, I know.

The Euromaidan was 2013... but I'm not surprised you're still sore about it because it ousted a deeply unpopular Russian puppet government.

Ukraine is in fact a democracy, yes. The current government won an election in 2019 against strong opposition (indeed, the incumbent).

Is it a perfect democracy? None exist. But it's obviously streets ahead of Russia.

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Originally Posted by drillerpie

He seamlessly shifted from uncritically repeating the misleading propaganda he sees on RT and his pro-Russia propaganda films, to 'paragon of journalistic integrity' disappointed because I only cited the part of the report relevant to the conversation at the time.

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I used to tune into RT or look at the website from time to time just to hear what kind of messaging they were putting out there. In my opinion a lot of it was very obvious propaganda strung together in a fairly amateurish fashion, and when you saw people like Alec Salmond and George Galloway prostituting themselves to get air time as main presenters, it was good reason to take the channel's content with a large pinch of salt, if not enjoy it on an ironically comedic level!

I do find it concerning, however, that the powers-that-be have decided for themselves that we should no longer be able to watch a channel such as RT at all, giving Russia a fairly easy and not entirely unjustified claim that our 'free press/media' is a myth. RT might have been a particularly unsubtle example of one viewpoint if not outright lies being presented as news, but you would have to be pretty brainwashed and naive not to believe that multiple western news broadcasters/newspapers (from various political perspectives) are not also indulging in such propaganda, and some do it to a degree not all that dissimilar to RT, if truth be told.

Should it not be up to the individual to decide what they wish to watch, and how they interpret it? I watched RT and concluded that a lot of its content was unreliable and very questionable if not easily disprovable crap, but at least back then it was my choice and my interpretation, not someone else making that decision for me.

Here’s some quality western reporting for us, adhering to the most rigorous of journalistic standards:

https://news.google.com/articles/CBM...S&ceid=US%3Aen

The exiled former speech writer got this juicy bit of intel from a ‘trusted source.’

"I usually don't retell insider stories, but today I will make an exception. Firstly, I trust the source too much, and secondly, the information is very juicy,"