Dundee Hibs

[Steve Finan]

Good evening.

Please give episode 50 of the Forgotten Football (wherever you get your podcasts, it went out at 7pm this evening) a listen.
It is an examination of United’s Dundee Hibs beginnings. I learned a lot (even though I was supposed to be on there to impart information!)
Forgotten Football is an excellent podcast, blog and book – https://www.amazon.co.uk/Forgotten-F.../dp/1801501785 well worth a look. And the old photos they tweet out are superb.
This podcast also contains an attempt at an explanation of why there isn’t a strong sectarian divide among people in the east of Scotland. Which isn’t a subject that is often discussed.
FF usually concentrates on European and worldwide clubs, so hopefully this will promote the wider DUFC story, and the admirable history of the club, far and wide.

[Stoke_Arab]

Good evening.

Please give episode 50 of the Forgotten Football (wherever you get your podcasts, it went out at 7pm this evening) a listen.
It is an examination of United’s Dundee Hibs beginnings. I learned a lot (even though I was supposed to be on there to impart information!)
Forgotten Football is an excellent podcast, blog and book – https://www.amazon.co.uk/Forgotten-F.../dp/1801501785 well worth a look. And the old photos they tweet out are superb.
This podcast also contains an attempt at an explanation of why there isn’t a strong sectarian divide among people in the east of Scotland. Which isn’t a subject that is often discussed.
FF usually concentrates on European and worldwide clubs, so hopefully this will promote the wider DUFC story, and the admirable history of the club, far and wide.

I'll listen to a podcast Steve but I'm not shelling out ten quid to Amazon for a history I already know.

[moicher]

I'll listen to a podcast Steve but I'm not shelling out ten quid to Amazon for a history I already know.

its free

https://www.ivoox.com/episode-50-dun...9151867_1.html

[Stoke_Arab]

its free

https://www.ivoox.com/episode-50-dun...9151867_1.html

Cheers Moicher I'll have a listen

[Stoke_Arab]

Good evening.

Please give episode 50 of the Forgotten Football (wherever you get your podcasts, it went out at 7pm this evening) a listen.
It is an examination of United’s Dundee Hibs beginnings. I learned a lot (even though I was supposed to be on there to impart information!)
Forgotten Football is an excellent podcast, blog and book – https://www.amazon.co.uk/Forgotten-F.../dp/1801501785 well worth a look. And the old photos they tweet out are superb.
This podcast also contains an attempt at an explanation of why there isn’t a strong sectarian divide among people in the east of Scotland. Which isn’t a subject that is often discussed.
FF usually concentrates on European and worldwide clubs, so hopefully this will promote the wider DUFC story, and the admirable history of the club, far and wide.

I'm going to listen to the podcast but can you answer this Steve?
All of the history of the club that I've read, which includes Rags to Riches, Across The Great Divide (brilliant and essential reading) the Centenary History and so on, ALL acknowledge that Pat Reilly started the club at least partly because he felt the Catholic working community were under represented. So at least technically you could say that the birth of the club did have a sectarian element. Is this podcast going to suggest otherwise?

Obviously that motivation became irrelevant as the religious aspect became unimportant and never took hold but I don't think we can deny our original history.

Just to add for clarity I'm not religious and I'm very glad that the club and fans have never been associated with that nonsense.

[Steve Finan]

Very good point Stoke – great question.
I’m not the expert on the podcast. It is Mike (the author of Rags to Riches) who provides the real scholarly approach. It is worth a listen.
My contribution was largely from a knowing my family history — my grandfather was at the first Dundee Hibs and Dundee United games in 1909 and 1923, but was a protestant. My father started attending games in the 1920s. I was taken to Tannadice in the 1960s. I am, as are both of my brothers, to this day a season-ticket holder. I’m no scholar, but I’ve spent many years immersed in learning about the history of Dundee United (and of Scottish football grounds, which I enjoy).
Sorry Stoke, I have digressed. There is a distinction, as far as I can tell, that can be drawn on the “exclusivity” aspect. Celtic, for their first few years, had a Catholics-only policy. To their credit, they dropped this pretty quick.
Dundee Hibs never had an exclusivity policy, even from day one.
I’d not like to hide from, or try to airbrush the history. And don’t think it would be possible to do that. Equally, I’d not want to overblow the circumstances or suggest Dundee Hibs was solely an Irish club. They did, as you say, start out aiming at Dundee's Irish community.
My contention, such as it is, in the podcast comes from my own experiences and having been assured by older folk I’ve spoken to (going back 50 years – so their experiences went back another 50 years before that) that Dundee as a city had less of a sectarian divide because of the way houses were allocated. There weren't sectarian areas.
There were no distinctions made for the Highlanders, Angus folk, Fifers or Irish who flocked to work in the jute mills in the 19th Century – they were housed wherever there was tenement space available. Very little thought was given to ideas such as “Catholics all here, Highlanders all there, Fifers all somewhere else”. They were all mixed in (greatly unsatisfactory) housing.
I think this is reflected in where the older churches and chapels are situated in Dundee. There isn’t a pattern showing areas being all of one religion or another. St Patrick’s is in Arthurstone Terrace, St Mary of Victories is on Ann Street, the RC cathedral is in the Nethergate. But there are protestant churches equally scattered throughout Dundee with no pattern. There isn’t much evidence of a cluster of one denomination in specific areas.
And I contend this shows that mixed-together housing went some way towards diluting any sectarian divides, and this is reflected in support of the two football clubs.
Lochee was said to be a Catholic enclave, but not exclusively. I think this is partly a legend that doesn’t really stand up to scrutiny. It did have had a lot of catholics, but it wasn’t all catholic.
And I’ve not heard or seen strong evidence of any of the jute mills operating sectarian hiring policies either. They took (and paid badly) anyone they could get.
On the other side, there isn’t, to be fair to Dundee FC, any strong evidence of them being a solely protestant club either. They shouldn’t have, and don’t deserve to have, that accusation levelled at them. They have never been a sectarian club, or support. A few supporters used to show Union Jack flags, but that was more to do with the colours they played in rather than any strong religious bias. DFC are not a sectarian-biased club, and they can also be proud of that.
My assertion is that the class divide in the city has always been much stronger than any sectarian divide. The rich in Broughty Ferry and the west end. The poor everywhere else.
I do assert a minor class divide when it comes to supporting a team, though. I reckon that, in the 20 years after the war, Dundee FC were the club supported by the golf club types and accountants, office staff and gaffers. These people wanted to align themselves with Dundee’s successes in the 1950s and 60s. Whereas United were the working class club. I also suggest that this, in the long run, proved to be a great strength. To my mind, United are very much the people’s club in this town.
I also point out that United don’t get the credit they deserve for hauling themselves up to be a big club in Scotland. No sugar daddy, no help from anyone, just a steady progression of good decisions and good recruitment. No other club has done this, while the likes of Clyde, Dumbarton, Third Lanark – you could include to a lesser degree Falkirk and Dunfermline – have gone in the other direction. And that there was always a ready-made audience for United’s rise – the working-class people of Dundee who revelled in the idea of the energetic, ambitious wee club in the city overtaking the complacent bigger club. That is, I think, a very Scottish attitude.
Dundee United are unique in Scottish football history in doing this. My father watched United trundle along in the lower reaches of the Second Division in the 1940s and 50s – a club no better than East Stirling or Albion Rovers. But 30 years later United were one of the best teams in Europe. That is worthy of remark. That is what sets Dundee United apart in all of Scotland – and what United supporters, out of all the things to be proud of about the club, should be the most proud of (in my opinion).
The lack of a truly protestant and truly catholic club in a two-club Scottish city is also quite remarkable, especially when compared to what goes on in Glasgow and Lanarkshire. And is something that all supporters in the city, of both United and Dundee, can be proud of.
But listen to the podcast. There is more food for thought in there.
Cheers.

[Arabknight]

Great response and post Steve a lot of food for tbought. Will definitely give the podcast a listen 👍

[arab777]

The other factor which contributed to lower levels of sectarian issues in Dundee than the West was many of the Irish immigrants that came to Dundee were single females who were drawn to Dundee to work in the mills and married local Scots. Hence there was higher levels of integration.

[Steve Finan]

Another good point, 777.

[Stoke_Arab]

Good post Steve 👍