Milwall

[Zippity]

Was going to start this thread at the weekend but got involved in a 'discussion' with a mate who was trying to convince me that the Milwall fans were objecting to the politics of the BLM movement as opposed to just being the racist morons that I think they are. I think anyone who falls for that line is naive in the extreme...and that's being kind, tbh.

This is a separate issue, imo, from the continuing efficacy of taking the knee and that's a whole different discussion, I think, albeit mentioning it here is relevant to the issue. It may well be that it's becoming almost a Pavlovian response, i.e. the Ref blows his whistle and the players are conditioned to kneeling automatically without considering why...and the danger is that this attitude becomes prevalent among the fans. I've been surprised with the depth of negative reaction to it continuing as it doesn't annoy me like it does some others and, if it is going to go, it needs to be on the back of something which turns this gesture into action (no, it's not just football's problem but since football has such a prominent place in so many people's lives, it was definitely an appropriate place to copy Colin Kaepernick's original gesture...but, like I say, that's a whole other thread).

But-Milwall are playing tomorrow and have announced that they're not going to take the knee but, instead, stand arm in arm in a gesture of solidarity.....

How to move on from taking the knee, in a way that moves the issue forward, is something that is now being discussed and I think taking the knee might not continue for much longer...but surely deciding not to do it the very next game after your fans have booed it (at the very first opportunity) looks like a very weak decision that, in some ways, hands a victory to the racists.

Yes? No? Thoughts?

And before anyone says it, I'm not entirely discounting the possibility that some of those booing were motivated by the Black Lives Matter organisation's links to some groups who have either an anti-Police or anti-semitic/anti-Israel/pro-Palestinian stance.

Although, if you believe that, you believe that Milwall supporters were, effectively, supporting the Police and Jewish people.

ok

Maybe i am discounting the possibility.

[ex_pat_magpie]

Was going to start this thread at the weekend but got involved in a 'discussion' with a mate who was trying to convince me that the Milwall fans were objecting to the politics of the BLM movement as opposed to just being the racist morons that I think they are. I think anyone who falls for that line is naive in the extreme...and that's being kind, tbh.

This is a separate issue, imo, from the continuing efficacy of taking the knee and that's a whole different discussion, I think, albeit mentioning it here is relevant to the issue. It may well be that it's becoming almost a Pavlovian response, i.e. the Ref blows his whistle and the players are conditioned to kneeling automatically without considering why...and the danger is that this attitude becomes prevalent among the fans. I've been surprised with the depth of negative reaction to it continuing as it doesn't annoy me like it does some others and, if it is going to go, it needs to be on the back of something which turns this gesture into action (no, it's not just football's problem but since football has such a prominent place in so many people's lives, it was definitely an appropriate place to copy Colin Kaepernick's original gesture...but, like I say, that's a whole other thread).

But-Milwall are playing tomorrow and have announced that they're not going to take the knee but, instead, stand arm in arm in a gesture of solidarity.....

How to move on from taking the knee, in a way that moves the issue forward, is something that is now being discussed and I think taking the knee might not continue for much longer...but surely deciding not to do it the very next game after your fans have booed it (at the very first opportunity) looks like a very weak decision that, in some ways, hands a victory to the racists.

Yes? No? Thoughts?

And before anyone says it, I'm not entirely discounting the possibility that some of those booing were motivated by the Black Lives Matter organisation's links to some groups who have either an anti-Police or anti-semitic/anti-Israel/pro-Palestinian stance.

Although, if you believe that, you believe that Milwall supporters were, effectively, supporting the Police and Jewish people.

ok

Maybe i am discounting the possibility.

Very well portrayed Zippity. Having lived in the South-East of the country since the 60's and visited all of the London and surrounding area's clubs many times I've noticed over the years how attitudes have changed in different parts of the capital.

Oddly enough on LBC radio station a couple of Chelsea supporters were very critical of the Millwall supporter's attitude when in the past many of Chelsea's fans have shown themselves up in that department. Also, I've found the areas of these clubs, Lewisham (although Millwall is north of the river) and Fulham (Where Chelsea's ground is located)not to be particularly racist.

[Scott Kirkland]

BLM really kicked off with the death of a man with a cops knee on his neck. It seems disrepectfull to kneel.

[jacapus]

Was going to start this thread at the weekend but got involved in a 'discussion' with a mate who was trying to convince me that the Milwall fans were objecting to the politics of the BLM movement as opposed to just being the racist morons that I think they are. I think anyone who falls for that line is naive in the extreme...and that's being kind, tbh.

This is a separate issue, imo, from the continuing efficacy of taking the knee and that's a whole different discussion, I think, albeit mentioning it here is relevant to the issue. It may well be that it's becoming almost a Pavlovian response, i.e. the Ref blows his whistle and the players are conditioned to kneeling automatically without considering why...and the danger is that this attitude becomes prevalent among the fans. I've been surprised with the depth of negative reaction to it continuing as it doesn't annoy me like it does some others and, if it is going to go, it needs to be on the back of something which turns this gesture into action (no, it's not just football's problem but since football has such a prominent place in so many people's lives, it was definitely an appropriate place to copy Colin Kaepernick's original gesture...but, like I say, that's a whole other thread).

But-Milwall are playing tomorrow and have announced that they're not going to take the knee but, instead, stand arm in arm in a gesture of solidarity.....

How to move on from taking the knee, in a way that moves the issue forward, is something that is now being discussed and I think taking the knee might not continue for much longer...but surely deciding not to do it the very next game after your fans have booed it (at the very first opportunity) looks like a very weak decision that, in some ways, hands a victory to the racists.

Yes? No? Thoughts?

And before anyone says it, I'm not entirely discounting the possibility that some of those booing were motivated by the Black Lives Matter organisation's links to some groups who have either an anti-Police or anti-semitic/anti-Israel/pro-Palestinian stance.

Although, if you believe that, you believe that Milwall supporters were, effectively, supporting the Police and Jewish people.

ok

Maybe i am discounting the possibility.

Eloquently put but I for one feel that the symbolic kneeling has long since past its sell by date.Take for example the gesture of clapping the NHS.There came a time when it was considered unnecessary as we will forever be grateful.There will no doubt (rightly) in the future be need to reaffirm our gratitude but the point has been made.There should not under any circumstances have been any open dissension to the kneeling - thats Millwall supporters for you, but I feel that many supporters are tiring of this,without in any way 'demonising' the BLM movement or its motives. Just my opinion.

[Cannylad]

I agree with what Jacapus said, I would add that as far as I'm concerned "taking the knee" is a political act and there is no place in any sport for politics. Why don't the clubs in general put out the anti racial stuff on hoardings, TV etc. Wonder what would happen if certain players refused to kneel before the game for whatever reason, they would be hounded by the press. As far as I'm concerned there is no place for racism in any sport and those that practice it should be hung out to dry but don't force the sportsmen into politics.

[Zippity]

I agree with you both, tbh, and Jacapus makes a very good pont about the clapping for the NHS (I know no-one's making a direct comparison between appreciating the NHS and supporting anti-racism but the principle of a gesture going beyond its sell-by date is the same).

The only caveat I would add is that, much as sport and politics should be separate, they're often not partly, you could argue, because the fans themselves bring politics into it by the way they behave, e.g. Chelsea fans not allowing that black man onto the tube and singing 'we're racist and that's the way we like it', England fans singing 'fuck the Pope and the IRA or, as at the weekend, Milwall fans booing the BLM protest.

Plus, as i said earlier, because of the global profile of football, I think that football is always going to be linked with certain high-profile issues affecting society (and that's a large part of a politicians remit, isn't it, to be involved in those sorts of things?) like anti-racism-Kick it Out, for example. Even the food bank initiative is, in a sense, a political issue.

I definitely agree that 'party poliitics' have absolutely no place in sport; however, I do think that sport, because of the way it's woven into the very fabric of so many people's daily lives, is a useful tool for change in a good way (e.g. racism, gender equality, poverty, etc).

Again, just my thoughts.

[ex_pat_magpie]

Important points again Zippity, particularly your last paragraph. Look at the influence Marcus Rashford's direct actions have had in changing the government's selfish, greedy stance.

[Geordie1974]

If I was in the crowd and players took the knee for kick out racism, I would be okay. If players took the knee for BLM like they do, an organisation that wants to re-write history, get rid of the police force and in my eyes is causing a racist divide similar to the national front years ago then I would boo like fùck as well.

[Zippity]

If I was in the crowd and players took the knee for kick out racism, I would be okay. If players took the knee for BLM like they do, an organisation that wants to re-write history, get rid of the police force and in my eyes is causing a racist divide similar to the national front years ago then I would boo like fùck as well.

The problem is that most of the people who have been vocal and active in support of the BLM movement, certainly as far as this country is concerned, have done so in the belief that they were supporting an anti-racist movement and hadn't realised that the organisation itself had a very different agenda.

[Jammy89]

Eloquently put but I for one feel that the symbolic kneeling has long since past its sell by date.Take for example the gesture of clapping the NHS.There came a time when it was considered unnecessary as we will forever be grateful.There will no doubt (rightly) in the future be need to reaffirm our gratitude but the point has been made.There should not under any circumstances have been any open dissension to the kneeling - thats Millwall supporters for you, but I feel that many supporters are tiring of this,without in any way 'demonising' the BLM movement or its motives. Just my opinion.

Aye - well said.