Over-achievement with Mac v Under-achievement with Clough

[RamFromCornwall]

One of my mates made a comment yesterday to me regarding how we have done this season. He's a United supporter (living at the very tip of Cornwall means only one thing - glory supporter) and his comment was "I don't understand how you've done so well this season after so many seasons of being mid-table" which got me thinking, are we over-achieving with Mac and the players we have or have we had the quality all along and just under-achieved with Clough?

People say this is Clough's team and he deserves most of the credit, but the reality is that this team bar the exception of a couple loanees had done nothing whilst Clough was here and all of a sudden we get a manager with PL, international and foreign experience and we shoot up to the brink of the Premier League?

I'll always admire what Nigel Clough has done for this club and think of him highly as a manager, and I hope he succeeds with Sheff Utd, however with the work he did for us and reshaping the club, getting these players in, di

[roger_ramjet]

agree

[Toggles]

It's very difficult to compare this season.

Yes Clough only achieved mid-table in his 4 and a bit seasons, but saying he under achieved with THIS team is hard to validate. He only had this team for 6 weeks or so, and we played some top teams in those early weeks. Would we have done as well if we stuck with him all season... prob not IMO, but we'll never know.

One thing is for sure, SMc has got a lot out of the tools at his disposal and is rightly getting the acclaim he deserves for doing so.

Let's see if we kick on next season, or have a kinda 'second season syndrome' campaign

[RamFromCornwall]

agree

With what part haha? That we've overachieved with McClaren or that we underachieved with Clough?

I definitely think it's the latter, personally.

[RamFromCornwall]

It's very difficult to compare this season.

Yes Clough only achieved mid-table in his 4 and a bit seasons, but saying he under achieved with THIS team is hard to validate. He only had this team for 6 weeks or so, and we played some top teams in those early weeks. Would we have done as well if we stuck with him all season... prob not IMO, but we'll never know.

One thing is for sure, SMc has got a lot out of the tools at his disposal and is rightly getting the acclaim he deserves for doing so.

Let's see if we kick on next season, or have a kinda 'second season syndrome' campaign

Part of the underachievement can rest with Clough's contacts and opinion though. He was happy with Smith at RB, who was sent straight back when McClaren arrived. Would we have had Bamford, Wisdom or Thorne here this season if we didn't change managers? I highly doubt it, we would have ended up somewhere between 12th and 7th too, I'm pretty confident in th

[Rapid]

this thread's bound to touch some nerves :-O

in answer to your question, I think we probably finished exactly where we should have done under clough. we were making very slow but sure enough steady progress. we had a good team but it was always lacking that final piece of the jigsaw (thorne for example).

was it Nigel's fault we had to sell shackell? or brayford? it seemed like every time we were almost there we'd take 2 steps back.

have we over achieved with mac? of course we have! probably not at what we've achieved but how fast we've done it. the whole set is miles ahead of what we had under clough imo. the coaching, the tactics, the formation, the improvement in the players we already have and the ability to attract the best loan signings in the division at big clubs.

unfortunately nigel just didn't have that. he didn't have the skills or tools to take us to where mac has it that time frame. who knows he may have done given a few more years but we'll never know.

one thing tha

[roger_ramjet]

agree

With what part haha? That we've overachieved with McClaren or that we underachieved with Clough?

I definitely think it's the latter, personally.[/quote]

both parts!

[RamFromCornwall]

I agree with you Rapid but that's part of the 'underachievement' label with Clough. Outsiders will look at our achievements with McClaren this season and place all of the credit on him for overachieving with our players, but who is to say it's the players that have overachieved, maybe they are finally fulfilling potential now they have much better coaching and guidance.

We personally look at our players now and see players who are top level Championship players with a couple of low level PL players. This time last year I don't think many would describe our squad as a top level Championship team. Clough certainly has the ability to spot talent, however seems to lack the ability to utilise this talent to affect. In a way he's like Peter Taylor was in terms of spotting talent for Brian Clough, but not like his dad in terms of results.

[GangwayD]

For me it was neither.

At the start of this season Clough's side was crying out for a good right back and holding midfielder, plus taht key word.. confidence. The message board was full of us all saying the same things.

McClaren saw this immediatly and brought in Wisdom. Even as early as after the Ipswich game the confidence in this young side seemd to grow and that they could compete and challenge at this level and that's just been built on.

We will never know if Clough would have been allowed to bring in a Wisdom, Bamford or Thorne, but I suspect Clough and his back room staff had took us as far as he could, although I firmly beleive we would have made the play-offs under him, but not as convincingly as we did with McClaren when under normal circumstances that would have been automatic promotion.

I think we will know if McCLaren over acheived depending on how things go next season for us.

A young squad which doesn't need much work must surely be favourites for a top four finis

[blackandwhite56]

Don't get why 'over-achievement' is being used.
It might imply that we have performed better than the skill/merit of the team really deserves and better than we could expect. Finishing third seemed right in that only Burnley and Leicester were able to beat us twice and completely boss the matches.
Of course it could have been 'luck' that got us to third as our furry friend suggests.
Derby are an unfancied club and rather ignored by the media so us doing so well will have been unexpected.
What is clear is that we did BETTER under McClaren than any prolonged spell with Clough and the stats clearly show this.Anyone who has watched us regularly can't have missed the different tactical approach and the improvement of certain players. Down to McClaren's coaching in my book.

(Cue ... one of Rats's highly misleading coloured charts to prove otherwise.)