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Just watched the Brexit film on recommendation from another poster, and took some notes for my own interest that got very long in the end but here goes:
Firstly it goes without saying that it’s all selectively edited and unscientific, but that’s true of the comments on both sides of the debate. Secondly as a note I was and still am for remain. My views before watching were that arguments about trade deals and economics are quite unprecise and we’ve little way of knowing what’s most likely to happen, though I suppose you have to go on weight of opinion if you want to judge it on those lines. But it seems to me that the more popular argument for leave is about ‘taking control back’.
On this: I think the possibilities of 'taking control back' with Brexit are being massively oversold. The influence that we as citizens have on how the UK is run is little better than the EU. ‘Democracy’ needs to be seen as more than just a right to vote – it’s a right to take part in all parts of the p
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Its clear from your comments you didn't understand the context being from an already entrenched position, secondly your grasp of economics is a hindrance when trying understand the arguments...theres nothing wrong with that, it just means that if you look deep into a complex puzzle without expertise or understanding you wont be able to reconcile it.
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I love this assertion by the remain camp that all health & safety legislation and workers rights come from the EU and the nasty Tories will set about repealing it all on 24th June 2016 if we vote to leave.
It is absolute total and utter garbage, it simply will not happen as it would be political suicide for any party to even contemplate it.
The difference is the EU could do it and we would have F all influence on it as we have no direct link to be able to vote out those making the legislation.
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Our influence is negative, we have had 72 measure appeals and guess how many we have won?Originally Posted by a123
NONE
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I wouldn't say entrenched gm, I'm always open to having my mind changed, just that this didn't do it for me. I found the parts about the fishing industry and trade deals interesting and illuminating, and will go and read about them more before I make any conclusions based on this one piece.
My grasp of economics is not completely hopeless (it was a third of my degree and have retained an interest since if that doesn't make me sound like too much of a tosspiece) but there weren't any actual numbers in this. You're right that it's complex and there are so many unknowns, which is why I'm more likely to be swayed by the balance of opinion on the economics case - I understand that's in favour of remain. But because it's quite split on that, and I don't think whether stay or leave we'll either be in the land of milk and honey or in total ruin, it's not the main factor for me. Also economic arguments can't be totally objective, otherwise there wouldn't be an argument.
And a123, I'm not
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Deutschland Deutschland über alles
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Harpo88 listen to professor minfords commons select committee interview it's enlightening. He doesn't engage fully around the complexity levers but he does explain that having no trade agreements is beneficial.
Effectively, the EU exists to enforce the power of corporate entities to through EU policies drives up prices, creates a dominance of big companies and suppresses smaller companies.
How much tax did Shell pay last year?
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Look, there's something simple here, if in the UK you make a quality product that's attractively priced then member countries of the EU will buy it even if we aren't part of the EU.
Does the EU refuse to buy goods from the USA, China, India or Canada?
Of course not.
We don't need the expensive club membership of the EU.
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Harpo88 I'm not saying that you personally have said that we will go back to the dark ages.
However listening to the ones heading up the remain campaign we will go back to the 19th century, back to putting urchins up chimneys, the workhouse, rickets, whooping cough, diphtheria and be getting ready for the 3rd world war.
Trade would cease with Europe over night and we would be cast adrift with massive tariffs, I'm sure the German car industry won't miss the £16bn of Audi's, BMW's, Mercedes, VW's they export to the UK every year for one example, it works both ways you know.
It absolute b@ll@cks and I for one am sick of being treated like an idiot who can be scared into voting for something that is rotten to the core and that I am not capable to absorb the facts around the debate and make an informed decision.
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Trade WILL NOT stop overnight, they aren't that stupid.
Losing sales in the UK is the last thing the VW Audi group wants at the moment.
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