George Floyd/Taking the Knee v Ukraine

[baggieal]

Thousands protested about Floyd who was a thug and a vicious one at that! Then there’s the taking the knee bull s hit !!! Where are huge demonstrations with Ukraine’s getting murdered?

What is wrong with people!!!! Pathetic!!!

[mickd1961]

I couldn’t agree more mate.

Every football fan should stand in silence just before three o’clock with a “V” solute telling Putin to f u c k off.

Hard to believe how many people have cosied up to this midget tyrant in the last 25 years.

The fact that most nations have slashed spending on military in the last three decades and Germany has been forbidden from having credible fighting forces make the West incredibly weak.

That said, only an utter fool bites off more than they can chew in the way that Hitler did.......anyone trying to annexe Western Europe wouldn’t be able to control events.

If it starts to look really bleak the Yanks will take Putin out.

What a pity we have the weakest American President in history in power at present.

There’s more life in his nappy!

[westcountryvillain]

I'd like to see blue and yellow mosaics made by fans holding up cards on all sides of the stadiums, the EU has now sanctioned Putin & his foreign minister personally. Biden and Bojo have yet to do so - I am astonished and humbled by the selfless acts of courage coming from Ukranians - what a proud race of people they are.

[Omegstrat6]

The problem is that the West is pretty powerless without the military might of the US but for decades Biden has moved further and further away from believing in deploying American forces abroad and acting as a kind of "world policeman" which is why he was so keen to get out of Afghanistan. Doubtless many of the American public are also fed up of lost lives and the cost of military adventures abroad, especially with so many divisive domestic issues to deal with. Rather naturally the Ukraine feel very unsupported given previous US President's willingness to deploy in situations like Bosnia or Libya.

In addition to this, of course, is the whole issue of greed and vested interests. Just as the West got into bed with rather unsavoury regimes like Saudi Arabia in order to protect its own interests and for certain individuals and companies to make even more money, so did they also begin to exploit the opportunities that the fall of communism in both Russia and China presented. Many Western co u n tries began to outsource production of their products to China due to cheaper costs but this has made them over-reliant on China now. In addition China has learnt to upskill it's own workforce from this and now offers plenty of competition too. The situation has seen massive growth in the Chinese economy since the country was accepted into the WTO in 2001-even if it is restricted to certain regions in particular and has made just a few exceptionally rich.

In Russia, the fall of communism was seized upon by a few-like Putin- who exploited the situation to grab even greater power and money. Shares in many of the old state run industries were distributed across the population but these individuals were able to snap many of them up for far less than true market value and ended up with controlling interests in them. Corruption in the country had been long-standing but this situation helped create a new breed of oligarchs. Again, the Western rich and powerful -like Trump- were willing to get into bed with them regardless for the sake of the opportunities to make yet more money and certain Russian individuals then began to gain both economic and political influence in the West in return. Increasing levels of trade has meant that imposing sanctions now will impact on Western countries almost as much as they will on Russia. Bottom line is that too many Western businesses and governments got into bed with the wrong people and now the Ukraine is helping pay the cost of that.

The West has helped create the situation where Putin has felt he could realise his dreams and begin to take back those countries that gained independence following the breakup of the USSR. Parallels to Hitler are obvious but people like Gary Kasparov have been forecasting this since well before Putin took the Crimea. Trump's public intention of reducing US support of NATO and the weakening of the EU by Brexit must have been music to Putin's ears. Doubtless NATO will shore up its Eastern boundaries as in Poland but as Ukraine is not a member there is no Article 5 it can invoke to get direct military help from it. Really feel for Ukraine but quite aside from the tangle of vested interests I cannot see direct confrontation between NATO and Russian forces as this would effectively be seen as NATO declaring war on Russia with all the dangers that entails.

[baggieal]

The problem is that the West is pretty powerless without the military might of the US but for decades Biden has moved further and further away from believing in deploying American forces abroad and acting as a kind of "world policeman" which is why he was so keen to get out of Afghanistan. Doubtless many of the American public are also fed up of lost lives and the cost of military adventures abroad, especially with so many divisive domestic issues to deal with. Rather naturally the Ukraine feel very unsupported given previous US President's willingness to deploy in situations like Bosnia or Libya.

In addition to this, of course, is the whole issue of greed and vested interests. Just as the West got into bed with rather unsavoury regimes like Saudi Arabia in order to protect its own interests and for certain individuals and companies to make even more money, so did they also begin to exploit the opportunities that the fall of communism in both Russia and China presented. Many Western co u n tries began to outsource production of their products to China due to cheaper costs but this has made them over-reliant on China now. In addition China has learnt to upskill it's own workforce from this and now offers plenty of competition too. The situation has seen massive growth in the Chinese economy since the country was accepted into the WTO in 2001-even if it is restricted to certain regions in particular and has made just a few exceptionally rich.

In Russia, the fall of communism was seized upon by a few-like Putin- who exploited the situation to grab even greater power and money. Shares in many of the old state run industries were distributed across the population but these individuals were able to snap many of them up for far less than true market value and ended up with controlling interests in them. Corruption in the country had been long-standing but this situation helped create a new breed of oligarchs. Again, the Western rich and powerful -like Trump- were willing to get into bed with them regardless for the sake of the opportunities to make yet more money and certain Russian individuals then began to gain both economic and political influence in the West in return. Increasing levels of trade has meant that imposing sanctions now will impact on Western countries almost as much as they will on Russia. Bottom line is that too many Western businesses and governments got into bed with the wrong people and now the Ukraine is helping pay the cost of that.

The West has helped create the situation where Putin has felt he could realise his dreams and begin to take back those countries that gained independence following the breakup of the USSR. Parallels to Hitler are obvious but people like Gary Kasparov have been forecasting this since well before Putin took the Crimea. Trump's public intention of reducing US support of NATO and the weakening of the EU by Brexit must have been music to Putin's ears. Doubtless NATO will shore up its Eastern boundaries as in Poland but as Ukraine is not a member there is no Article 5 it can invoke to get direct military help from it. Really feel for Ukraine but quite aside from the tangle of vested interests I cannot see direct confrontation between NATO and Russian forces as this would effectively be seen as NATO declaring war on Russia with all the dangers that entails.

Don't disagree - The problem is that the West is pretty powerless without the military might of the US but for decades Biden has moved further and further away from believing in deploying American forces abroad and acting as a kind of "world policeman" which is why he was so keen to get out of Afghanistan. Doubtless many of the American public are also fed up of lost lives and the cost of military adventures abroad, especially with so many divisive domestic issues to deal with. Rather naturally the Ukraine feel very unsupported given previous US President's willingness to deploy in situations like Bosnia or Libya.

BUT - do the US or any country in Europe including the UK honestly feel a f uckin nut job will stop at Ukraine? No!!! Putin will ensure Russia keep marching on and on!

Deport every Russian who does not hold a citizens visa! Ban them from Swift - Ban them from every sporting event. Yes Putin will retaliate but we can ride out the storm if all countries stick together. Russia won't! As said on another thread if shut off energy supplies and some businesses collapse - so be it! Like the Ukraine people being murdered people will still be better off.

F uck self interest. I will be going to Hull and will for the first time boo taking the knee if there is no show of support instead for Ukraine!

[Omegstrat6]

Certainly agree that Putin, like Hitler before him, has wider ambitions and, like Hitler, he is not entirely sane and so cannot be reasoned with or negotiated with or trusted. Comes across as a narcissist and psychopathic and probably only responds to physical threats.

Whilst I feel that there is little that can be done now for the Ukraine-simply because NATO will not directly help with military action as it is not a member-I do, however, think that NATO will significantly ramp up its military presence in all of its Eastern member countries. This is something Putin will certainly not like and he will doubtless call it Western "aggression" but even he is not deluded enough to think he can take on NATO. The sanctions need to be even more severe now though because Putin has enough money to weather these short-term (long enough for him to realise taking Ukraine at least) but they will start to bite.

Perhaps the hope is that the combined effects of prolonged economic sanctions, the strengthening of NATO forces on Russia's borders and overwhelming public and international condemnation might help force Putin to rethink his position on the Ukraine or even help force him from power? Whatever happens, I cannot see any of this preventing what is happening in Ukraine at the moment. Really feel for them. Moral support and protests may not make any real difference in the short term but the more the public make their feelings known the better. In democracies at least, strong public opinion should inform the actions of elected governments and that is why it is important to not just keep quiet.

[Barrera]

The West has brought this in themselves by not acting sooner. The writing has been on the wall for ages with this sociopath Putin in charge. Even in this country only a few weeks ago the news was dominated by f*****g Covid parties in Downing St just as Putin was amassing his troops and going through final drills. Putin only reacts to strong actions yet even now the Germans are s**t scared about Russian energy being cut off, the French are worried about champagne sales to Russia plummeting and the Italians wobbly about sales of luxury goods to Russia. Putin has read us like a book - Europe is a weak and divided bunch of countries. Always has been and always will be. To be fair to the UK we are the only ones to stand up ... but even we could go further than just sanctions. And I don’t buy this bull***t about NATO not putting troops in Ukraine. Why the F*** Not ..... this is a serious situation which could quickly get out of hand .... and the West/NATO/Europe needs to wake up and smell the coffee .... Poland and the Baltic’s are next ...

[baggieal]

The West has brought this in themselves by not acting sooner. The writing has been on the wall for ages with this sociopath Putin in charge. Even in this country only a few weeks ago the news was dominated by f*****g Covid parties in Downing St just as Putin was amassing his troops and going through final drills. Putin only reacts to strong actions yet even now the Germans are s**t scared about Russian energy being cut off, the French are worried about champagne sales to Russia plummeting and the Italians wobbly about sales of luxury goods to Russia. Putin has read us like a book - Europe is a weak and divided bunch of countries. Always has been and always will be. To be fair to the UK we are the only ones to stand up ... but even we could go further than just sanctions. And I don’t buy this bull***t about NATO not putting troops in Ukraine. Why the F*** Not ..... this is a serious situation which could quickly get out of hand .... and the West/NATO/Europe needs to wake up and smell the coffee .... Poland and the Baltic’s are next ...

F uck self interest - take the murdering c unt out! If my company collapses so what - more bothered about innocent people being butchered by Hitler mark 2

The West need to do far more!!

[Omegstrat6]

The issue is that Ukraine is not a member of NATO and therefore cannot invoke Article 5 to get NATO forces as her allies to help fight Russia under international law. Yes, Ukraine is understandably bitter because the Americans have stepped in in the past in Bosnia and Libya citing "humanitarian" reasons but there has been a big sea change in US thinking since then. It is true that NATO could still help with direct military support but this would then effectively mean declaring war on Russia, as Ben Wallace pointed out. The question then is whether or not Putin would step down in this game of brinkmanship or escalate it into WW3 with all that entails. Given his personality, seems the West don't want to gamble on the risk of that despite all their condemnations of the invasion.

What I do think will happen however is that NATO will strengthen its forces in all its more Easterly member countries such as Poland. Biden has already stated that NATO is open to allowing other countries to join should they wish which is a clear message to Putin that his demands that the Baltic countries between the two should not be allowed to join is being re-buffed. He won't take kindly to that and it won't help Ukraine but it should help stop further Russian expansion unless he really is deluded enough to declare war with NATO nations himself.

[Barrera]

The issue is that Ukraine is not a member of NATO and therefore cannot invoke Article 5 to get NATO forces as her allies to help fight Russia under international law. Yes, Ukraine is understandably bitter because the Americans have stepped in in the past in Bosnia and Libya citing "humanitarian" reasons but there has been a big sea change in US thinking since then. It is true that NATO could still help with direct military support but this would then effectively mean declaring war on Russia, as Ben Wallace pointed out. The question then is whether or not Putin would step down in this game of brinkmanship or escalate it into WW3 with all that entails. Given his personality, seems the West don't want to gamble on the risk of that despite all their condemnations of the invasion.

What I do think will happen however is that NATO will strengthen its forces in all its more Easterly member countries such as Poland. Biden has already stated that NATO is open to allowing other countries to join should they wish which is a clear message to Putin that his demands that the Baltic countries between the two should not be allowed to join is being re-buffed. He won't take kindly to that and it won't help Ukraine but it should help stop further Russian expansion unless he really is deluded enough to declare war with NATO nations himself.

I agree and that’s the issue - how far will this madman go. At some point though the West has to stand up and test his bottle. Ukraine is lost - overwhelming odds against a country that can only defend not retaliate by sending a few cruise missiles at Moscow. And with NATO not sending in troops because they haven’t signed up to the treaty ... Ukraine is a sitting duck. But how bravely they are fighting and each day that goes by without outright victory Putin gets weaker at home and abroad. It’s heartbreaking to see a modern European city like Kyiv in this state ... what if it happened here in London or Birmingham.