O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

[ramAnag]

You can't have been down my local then Andy!! Nor do I any longer, as it stinks (probably rA's underclasses!), but even that is preferable to smoke

Second time today you’ve referred to ‘rA’s underclasses’, GP. I merely pointed out, a while ago, that there is an ‘underclass’ and that they represent a group of people who may be ‘difficult to reach’ as far as vaccination is concerned.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Maths as we agree not your strong suit rA. I make it once today.... Still I like your logic, Australia must be 15-6 using it

[ramAnag]

Maths as we agree not your strong suit rA. I make it once today.... Still I like your logic, Australia must be 15-6 using it

My apologies...the second time since 10.04 yesterday. Either way they’re not my favourites and nor do I feel any possessiveness towards them.

[Trickytreesreds]

Ultimately it did, Tricky. It may be hard to believe now, but even in the late seventies/early eighties a small group of us would just sit in the staff room smoking with complete disregard for the majority around us and even much later, my wife used to regularly come home smelling of smoke because she had to share an office with a pipe smoker...but then things changed.

Ultimately if you couldn’t function in the office/staff room/factory...wherever without smoking then you either took yourself off outside or you no longer worked there.

Likewise with public transport/cinemas/theatres/restaurants/football grounds/hotel rooms etc.
People used to smoke on planes and I can certainly remember a time when there were smoking compartments on trains and you could smoke on the top deck of buses, in fact so thick was the ‘fog’ up there it seemed almost compulsory.

Now you’re not allowed to smoke in any of the above. It has long been considered anti-social and a risk to public health. Those that still choose to smoke, and put an extra burden on the NHS, have been effectively ostracised and for me there are clear parallels with those who (with the exception of a tiny minority) choose to remain unvaccinated for no good reason...because that too is anti social and a risk to public health.

Yes dude, I know that. But they don't sack you for being a smoker. They tell you it's banned at work, comply or else it's the discipline procedure. How does that compare with jabbed or not jabbed?

[ramAnag]

Yes dude, I know that. But they don't sack you for being a smoker. They tell you it's banned at work, comply or else it's the discipline procedure. How does that compare with jabbed or not jabbed?

Fine lines, Tricky. They can arrest you on a plane, chuck you off a bus or out of a taxi, chuck you out of a football ground, theatre, cinema, restaurant or airport and ensure that you have to leave the premises at work. There’s really very little difference between how we treat smokers nowadays and our reaction to those who refuse to be vaccinated. Both have their access to premises, attractions and potential employment restricted in much the same way. I don’t think you can argue with that.

[Geoff Parkstone]

and, for what its worth, smokers and anti vaxxers still get treated in NHS hospitals at our expense!! Of course smokers have heavily contributed to the cost of the NHS (in addition to normal IT and NI) via tobacco tax, what have non or anti vaxxxers done ?

[Trickytreesreds]

Fine lines, Tricky. They can arrest you on a plane, chuck you off a bus or out of a taxi, chuck you out of a football ground, theatre, cinema, restaurant or airport and ensure that you have to leave the premises at work. There’s really very little difference between how we treat smokers nowadays and our reaction to those who refuse to be vaccinated. Both have their access to premises, attractions and potential employment restricted in much the same way. I don’t think you can argue with that.

oh really mate? All you mentioned there was, you can't SMOKE here. You cannot force someone to stop or start smoking. That's the difference.
So lets look at that. You work in a care home. Yesterday, was deadline day to get jabbed. You smoke during your official breaks outside. No law/employer can stop you.
If you aren't vaxed, you're sacked. I'd love to know how they are going to make that work lol

Javid has said 106, 000 non jabbed NHS workers will get the sack if they aren't vaxed soon. Lol, I want to know how that's going to happen?


In Australia 300 000 public facing jobs have until March the 31st to get jabbed, or they are sacked. Lol again, I want to know how that's going to happen?

Here's a poser for you. It's called the human rights act. If you think a government can force something on you, that removes your income and ruins your entire life, then ou are in for a shock. Expect the lawyers having a free for all here.

It was only a few months ago, we stood clapping for NHS and care workers, doing their jobs, unvaccinated. now we may be trying to sack them? .

So no mate, it isn't un arguable. Hold my beer and watch this space.

[ramAnag]

oh really mate? All you mentioned there was, you can't SMOKE here. You cannot force someone to stop or start smoking. That's the difference.
So lets look at that. You work in a care home. Yesterday, was deadline day to get jabbed. You smoke during your official breaks outside. No law/employer can stop you.
If you aren't vaxed, you're sacked. I'd love to know how they are going to make that work lol

Javid has said 106, 000 non jabbed NHS workers will get the sack if they aren't vaxed soon. Lol, I want to know how that's going to happen?


In Australia 300 000 public facing jobs have until March the 31st to get jabbed, or they are sacked. Lol again, I want to know how that's going to happen?

Here's a poser for you. It's called the human rights act. If you think a government can force something on you, that removes your income and ruins your entire life, then ou are in for a shock. Expect the lawyers having a free for all here.

It was only a few months ago, we stood clapping for NHS and care workers, doing their jobs, unvaccinated. now we may be trying to sack them? .

So no mate, it isn't un arguable. Hold my beer and watch this space.

Okay, I’m not interested in another ‘fall out’. I was just trying to establish the nearest parallel I could to how we, as a society, have reacted to people who in some way pose a passive public health threat.

The clapping for the NHS and care workers actually ceased at least fif**** months ago, some time before the first vaccines became available...and it has always been believed that vaccination is the quickest and best way out of this crisis.

You obviously have a case about the complexities and morality of large numbers of crucial workers facing the sack although I’m not sure how accurate your numbers are, but that was never my point.

What is, imo, ‘unarguable’ is, firstly that there is a clear parallel between our societal response to smoking in public and those who choose to remain unvaccinated in that both groups will be treated differently and have restrictions imposed upon their behaviour which is pretty much all the NZ PM suggested.
Allied to that is the overwhelming public belief that as many people as possible being fully vaccinated as soon as possible is what is best for the population. You surely must believe that too, otherwise you wouldn’t have, totally justifiably, rushed to the front of the queue for your booster jab as a result of your current ‘vulnerability’.

[Trickytreesreds]

Okay, I’m not interested in another ‘fall out’. I was just trying to establish the nearest parallel I could to how we, as a society, have reacted to people who in some way pose a passive public health threat.

The clapping for the NHS and care workers actually ceased at least fif**** months ago, some time before the first vaccines became available...and it has always been believed that vaccination is the quickest and best way out of this crisis.

You obviously have a case about the complexities and morality of large numbers of crucial workers facing the sack although I’m not sure how accurate your numbers are, but that was never my point.

What is, imo, ‘unarguable’ is, firstly that there is a clear parallel between our societal response to smoking in public and those who choose to remain unvaccinated in that both groups will be treated differently and have restrictions imposed upon their behaviour which is pretty much all the NZ PM suggested.
Allied to that is the overwhelming public belief that as many people as possible being fully vaccinated as soon as possible is what is best for the population. You surely must believe that too, otherwise you wouldn’t have, totally justifiably, rushed to the front of the queue for your booster jab as a result of your current ‘vulnerability’.

RA, I'm not an anti vaxer. You know that.
I'd love to see every human on the planet vaccinated.
However, there are lines(within laws and legal rights), as to how far you can go.

You cannot "force" anyone to go along with something they don't wish to. You cannot also discriminate against that person for not doing so.
You can limit their decision, like smoking has been banned from public. (again something I am more than happ with)
But you are dodgy ground if you target a group for punishment by sacking.
I'm sure there are many on here with employment law experiance, who can vouch for the legal nightmare ahead.
I just don't believe all these threats are a good way of talking folks round.
Javid has been in that job 5 mins and already making a dogs dinner of it.

[ramAnag]

RA, I'm not an anti vaxer. You know that.
I'd love to see every human on the planet vaccinated.
However, there are lines(within laws and legal rights), as to how far you can go.

You cannot "force" anyone to go along with something they don't wish to. You cannot also discriminate against that person for not doing so.
You can limit their decision, like smoking has been banned from public. (again something I am more than happ with)
But you are dodgy ground if you target a group for punishment by sacking.
I'm sure there are many on here with employment law experiance, who can vouch for the legal nightmare ahead.
I just don't believe all these threats are a good way of talking folks round.
Javid has been in that job 5 mins and already making a dogs dinner of it.

I agree with much of that...I know you’re not an ‘anti vaxer’... I have no time for Javid either... ‘threatening’ MAY not be the best approach...and, as ever, it’ll probably be the lawyers who end up doing very well out of all this.
But you’re wrong and a little naive, imo, on two things...they/you CAN ‘force’ people to go along with something they don’t wish to and you CAN discriminate (or legislate) against certain behaviours.
We do so all the time in all sorts of ways. That is the point of rules and laws.