Matchday Thread: Brizzle v Rams

[swaledale]

if we are in the lower reaches of the football pyramid following liquidation, then not having access to PP may be the least of our problems. if we go into liquidation then the existing lease arrangement between Mel's Gellawco and the club will disappear anyway. If MSD get control of the ground, its only use would be to re-lease it to Derby City, who couldnt afford even the minimum rent and operating costs on such a big stadium with no TV money, virtually no sponsorship and a few quid ground admission for games against the likes of Borrowash Victoria and Heanor.

So even if MSD enforce their charge over the ground in satisfaction of debt, what can they do with it? A new Derby couldn't afford it, I doubt any other local club (eg For*st)would want to play there, so maybe demolish it to build a car park or another large shop or two. A football ground isnt going to be worth £ 80 million with no football team to rent it. Liquidation doesn't really work for anyone, but the reality is that there may not be anyone sufficiently interested enough to stop it happening.

So, if we have to reform a club at or near the pyramid base, the question is:

What name should we adopt
What nickname?
What home colours?

Assume for one minute that the liquidators own the IP in the existing brand, so we couldnt use it


leaving MSD with a white elephant, facing limited economic options

I may be wrong, but I think there is some league rule about reforming using the same name, in most cases its a subtle name change such as Macclesfield Town have reformed as Macclesfield FC, but I don't think we can reform as Derby County. Happy to be proven wrong if someone out there knows better.

Mad seems to be right we could end up in the 5th tier, though not sure how that works.

Lets hope this doesn't come to pass.

[ramAnag]

I can’t believe it’s now come to mention of us being ‘relegated’ to the 5th tier.
Is this actually realistic or just a case of scaremongering?
When I think back to the initial words of warning about our predicament far too many worst case scenarios do seem to have come true...but how can such ‘demotion’ as is being spoken of be in anyone’s best interests?

[Geoff Parkstone]

I can’t believe it’s now come to mention of us being ‘relegated’ to the 5th tier.
Is this actually realistic or just a case of scaremongering?
When I think back to the initial words of warning about our predicament far too many worst case scenarios do seem to have come true...but how can such ‘demotion’ as is being spoken of be in anyone’s best interests?

To be clear rA, it wouldn't be demotion or relegation. DCFC would be wiped off the face of the earth. It's records condemned to rot in history as the records of a former club, just like Blackburn Olympic or Clapham Rovers.

Thence a new club would perhaps rise from the ashes with a new name, playing on a park somewhere, at a level that the authorities allow if that league accepts the request to join.

Probably in no-ones interests as the ground would be worth considerably less with no tenant but sometimes examples have to be made for the benefit of the whole. And who better to make an example of than the reviled cheating Rams?

[ramAnag]

To be clear rA, it wouldn't be demotion or relegation. DCFC would be wiped off the face of the earth. It's records condemned to rot in history as the records of a former club, just like Blackburn Olympic or Clapham Rovers.

Thence a new club would perhaps rise from the ashes with a new name, playing on a park somewhere, at a level that the authorities allow if that league accepts the request to join.

Probably in no-ones interests as the ground would be worth considerably less with no tenant but sometimes examples have to be made for the benefit of the whole. And who better to make an example of than the reviled cheating Rams?

That’s why the words ‘relegated’ and ‘demotion’ were originally written in single quote inverted commas, GP.

Call it what you like, or just say ‘chucked out’ if you prefer...the impact is the same. Either way I’m struggling to believe we’ve gone from a twelve point penalty to a 21 point penalty - meaning almost guaranteed relegation - and now to talk of the ‘fifth tier’ in just a few months.
Punishment, imo, always has to be proportionate. Is it the Rams who cheated and are ‘reviled’ or those who were in charge at the time?
Having spoken up in favour of Morris for years I am shocked to discover the extent of the ‘wrongdoing’ but, when it comes to talk of punishment beyond the ruination of this season and certain relegation, shouldn’t it be those responsible who pay the price rather than the supporters and employees of Derby County who will, through no fault of their own, be the ones to suffer.

[MadAmster]

Factually rA, from the minute we went into Administration, liquidation was always a possible outcome. It just take ONE creditor to reject the offer and DCFC is no more. Extinct. Dead and buried. Shuffled off this mortal coil............. you get the drift.

What happens after that is the club either remains defunct or an new club is born out of the ashes. New club, new name, new entity. If we have, for instance, that new club, Abu Derby County 2022 (or whatever) with ownership of or use of Pride Park and 10,000 season ticket holders we would likely get placed into tier 5 of the EFL system, the level where Sav's Macc FC currently are. L1 or L2 are out of the question IMO and what used to be called the Conference is likely to be a no no as well.

Basically, the new club would be placed where the EFL chooses. One would hope that they would be kind to the new ADCFC but that's definitely not a given.

[StensonRam]

But doesn't the EFL only administer as far as league 2, just confused as to 'placed where the ELF chooses' thing

[Geoff Parkstone]

The fly in your ointment my well be access to PP, MA. Could your new ADCFC afford the expense of a ground so out of keeping with the league we may end up in, with no other significant sources of revenue other than matchday tickets and concessions? Minimal away fans, minimal TV revenue, the model would be more of a semi pro playing staff.

rA

"shouldn’t it be those responsible who pay the price rather than the supporters and employees of Derby County who will, through no fault of their own, be the ones to suffer."

Nice sentiment, zero grounding in reality I'm afraid. The law is the law, consequences of financial mismanagement rebound across all stakeholders in the business, even those with no actual input into that failure save for doing their job or buying their ticket.

Millions of people suffered in the first and second world wars, predominantly through dying. Was it their fault? in most cases not. But it happened anyway, as may this fate befall our club. It may be unfair on those stakeholders that you identify, but whoever said life was fair? If this is to be the most unfair thing to happen to me in my life, I'll take it.

If we are to be made the example of to show football that financial indulgence and overspending has consequences and has to end, then a greater good may be served. The consequences for the recent former directors and their continued ability to serve as directors of other companies will be interesting too.

So, rank in order of "bestness" of these three ownership groups we have had - Mel Morris, the 3 Amigos, Robert Maxwell. Write in alternative nominations if you wish

[Geoff Parkstone]

But doesn't the EFL only administer as far as league 2, just confused as to 'placed where the ELF chooses' thing

It probably would be down to an ELF Stenson, given the time of year. To answer your question, the 6 tiers below League 2 are adminsitered by the FA

[ramAnag]

The fly in your ointment my well be access to PP, MA. Could your new ADCFC afford the expense of a ground so out of keeping with the league we may end up in, with no other significant sources of revenue other than matchday tickets and concessions? Minimal away fans, minimal TV revenue, the model would be more of a semi pro playing staff.

rA

"shouldn’t it be those responsible who pay the price rather than the supporters and employees of Derby County who will, through no fault of their own, be the ones to suffer."

Nice sentiment, zero grounding in reality I'm afraid. The law is the law, consequences of financial mismanagement rebound across all stakeholders in the business, even those with no actual input into that failure save for doing their job or buying their ticket.

Millions of people suffered in the first and second world wars, predominantly through dying. Was it their fault? in most cases not. But it happened anyway, as may this fate befall our club. It may be unfair on those stakeholders that you identify, but whoever said life was fair? If this is to be the most unfair thing to happen to me in my life, I'll take it.

If we are to be made the example of to show football that financial indulgence and overspending has consequences and has to end, then a greater good may be served. The consequences for the recent former directors and their continued ability to serve as directors of other companies will be interesting too.

So, rank in order of "bestness" of these three ownership groups we have had - Mel Morris, the 3 Amigos, Robert Maxwell. Write in alternative nominations if you wish

Hmmm. You don’t come from Derby or Derbyshire do you...don’t have much affinity with the place other than a vague association and affection for the club’s achievements during your late te enage/early adult years.

I fully appreciate that football can be little more than a ‘soundtrack’ to the more important aspects of life but DCFC is pretty important to people up here you know.

Have ‘we’ done anything worse than numerous other clubs over the decades? I honestly don’t know, but I suspect ‘we’ - that is the vast majority of supporters who fork out regularly for tickets, programmes, transport and other miscellaneous items - have done little, if anything wrong.

Most supporters I know will take the 21 point penalty and almost certain subsequent relegation on the chin. Precedents have been set by the likes of Sunderland, Bolton, Coventry etc, we all know that, but talk of Derby finding themselves in tier 5 seems unnecessarily punitive to me...vindictive even, and your ‘first and second world wars’ analogy just a tad OTT.

[Geoff Parkstone]

"Hmmm. You don’t come from Derby or Derbyshire do you...don’t have much affinity with the place other than a vague association and affection for the club’s achievements during your late te enaffection for achievements do I. age/early adult years."

OOOOH the cat gets his claws out when in a corner

So I have only been supporting Derby for about 55 years and don't come from the area. So I just have a vague "late te en affection" do ? Ok I'm a plastic. I suppose on that basis you are a plastic rugby league fan since you don't live in an area with a lancashire rugby league team in it.

A future club in the local area may find itself in tier 5 or beyond? Yes that's harsh on everyone concerned, its not fair on those parties that are collateral damage, but you know what, those are the rules. Don't blame the rules, they are there for everyone to see. Blame the transgressors. But don't go burying your head in the sand to the possibility, crying in the corner saying its unfair: man up, deal with the possibility and consider what you can do about it should it come to it. How much would you invest in getting a new club going etc. That's the true test of plastic or real.