O/T:- Vaccines: Pro/Anti & Conspiracy Theories [Originally Covid Pass and Meadow Ln.]

[Elite_Pie]

People need to make their own risk assessment. Take that choice away and we really are entering a very very dark path indeed.

Maybe, but I believe not being vaccinated will lead to an even darker path. I wouldn't make it mandatory, but those who ignore the advice shouldn't whine if they are refused entry to pubs, clubs, cinemas, footy matches etc.

I don't sit easily with a government (especially this one) telling people what to do, but in this case I see no real alternative.

[queenslandpie]

Maybe, but I believe not being vaccinated will lead to an even darker path. I wouldn't make it mandatory, but those who ignore the advice shouldn't whine if they are refused entry to pubs, clubs, cinemas, footy matches etc.

I don't sit easily with a government (especially this one) telling people what to do, but in this case I see no real alternative.

The truth of the matter on vaccinations Elite is that nobody knows do they. Will not being vaccinated lead to even darker path? Well it may or it may not. Will being vaccinated lead to a less darker path ( as it appears there is still an inherent risk that the path is dark it is just a question of how dark). If you read about the effectiveness of Pfizer ( which does not include a study yet on Omicron) based on representative samples of some 3 million people in the USA it is only around 45% effective after 6 months. So it doesn't actually do a lot and certainly not what we were all told a while back ( there were claims of 95% effectiveness) . Then we are supposed to have boosters ( they are already making murmurs about a 4th being required) and I personally know of several people hospitalised post COVID jab with heart issues ( Myocarditis) including my Father in Law who before you ask were fit and healthy people who had no issues with their health previously and not that old. So we are now all in a situation where we are being asked to have a vaccine which is not effective medium term and which causes side effects that we have no idea of the size of medium term and also appears to cause side effects which are not being admitted. FWIW I am double vaxxed but I certainly don't see unvaxxed as particularly risky to be around, they are ploughing their own furrow and I have 100% respect for that. Vaccine passes go live in QLD in a week or so. It's going to be interesting to see what huge process issues these cause for business. The current Government advice is that if someone unvaxxed tries to enter your restaurant, pub etc you have to call the police. And on the other hand we are being inundated with police messaging telling us not to call them for trivial matters such as a noisy party, minor break and enter etc. Laughable and this is all certainly a case of the tail wagging the dog with the tail of course being Pfizer.

[upthemaggies]

Maybe, but I believe not being vaccinated will lead to an even darker path. I wouldn't make it mandatory, but those who ignore the advice shouldn't whine if they are refused entry to pubs, clubs, cinemas, footy matches etc.

I don't sit easily with a government (especially this one) telling people what to do, but in this case I see no real alternative.

Vaccinated or not, segregation or not, everybody vaccinated or not. you will be exposed to Covid and future variants for the rest of your life unless you remain in self induced lockdown forever.

The big question now is, does vaccinating screw up the immune system to the point that most or a significant number will be re-infected to the point they become very ill - repeatedly - short of having a specific targeted vaccine in time, assuming they do actually work*.

If unvaxxed with natural immunity could be re-infected to the point of severe sickness (other than a tiny number of breakthrough cases) we would know about it, the BBC and Good Morning Britain etc. would be screaming it from the rooftops on a daily basis to the point of total hysteria. Nobody talks about natural immunity because it works and casts a far wider net to deal with variants, it's free and there is no money to be made out of it. See also effective treatments and Africa mostly breezing through this pandemic despite being the least vaccinated and least medically equipped continent to deal with it.

I'm fairly convinced they want everybody vaccinated to eradicate the control group, which would otherwise show in the long run that people faired far better with exclusive natural immunity. Government is the shadow cast by corporate business, big pharma rules supreme and the politicians and the media (via the Covid related advertising) have been bought. The rest of us become slaves to pharma and our glorious leaders for the rest of our lives, with our immune system and our freedoms entirely in their hands, the middle class and working class replaced by a slave class.


*A virus would normally weaken in time so you'd expect it to kill off a large number in the early stages, taking out the most vulnerable - this being before vaccinations were available. Vaccines now take credit for reduced deaths but they may well have actually made little or no difference.

[SaltySeaDog]

I just want to say UTM, thank you for sharing your points so well today in this discussion. I feel that this type of discourse should be encouraged more, and is very healthy.

You have obviously delved into this subject quite deeply, and I'd like to ask a question if you don't mind?

One of the sticks used to prod/beat the unvaccinated is that if you catch COVID then you are more likely to spread it. Have you found any evidence that supports or disproves this point?

[SwalePie]

While I try and respect personal freedoms and not blindly follow like a sheep, from a personal point of view I find the evidence pretty conclusive. Get the jabs as soon as you can, because overall it helps not only you but everyone else in minimising the effects of this virus. I'm triple jabbed and have had Covid (thankfully mild), I'll be booking my next booster as soon as I'm allowed.

Likewise on all counts

[magpie_mania]

Vaccinated or not, segregation or not, everybody vaccinated or not. you will be exposed to Covid and future variants for the rest of your life unless you remain in self induced lockdown forever.

The big question now is, does vaccinating screw up the immune system to the point that most or a significant number will be re-infected to the point they become very ill - repeatedly - short of having a specific targeted vaccine in time, assuming they do actually work*.

If unvaxxed with natural immunity could be re-infected to the point of severe sickness (other than a tiny number of breakthrough cases) we would know about it, the BBC and Good Morning Britain etc. would be screaming it from the rooftops on a daily basis to the point of total hysteria. Nobody talks about natural immunity because it works and casts a far wider net to deal with variants, it's free and there is no money to be made out of it. See also effective treatments and Africa mostly breezing through this pandemic despite being the least vaccinated and least medically equipped continent to deal with it.

I'm fairly convinced they want everybody vaccinated to eradicate the control group, which would otherwise show in the long run that people faired far better with exclusive natural immunity. Government is the shadow cast by corporate business, big pharma rules supreme and the politicians and the media (via the Covid related advertising) have been bought. The rest of us become slaves to pharma and our glorious leaders for the rest of our lives, with our immune system and our freedoms entirely in their hands, the middle class and working class replaced by a slave class.


*A virus would normally weaken in time so you'd expect it to kill off a large number in the early stages, taking out the most vulnerable - this being before vaccinations were available. Vaccines now take credit for reduced deaths but they may well have actually made little or no difference.

Regarding your last sentence, how do you account for the large drop in deaths and hospitalization which seems to have happened after the vaccines were introduced?

[magpie_mania]

Likewise on all counts

Agreed

[BanjoPie]

Some people are beyond help - If the anti-vaxers are so sure of their facts, they should sign away their right to treatment for covid.

[BigFatPie]

Some people are beyond help - If the anti-vaxers are so sure of their facts, they should sign away their right to treatment for covid.

A very good idea. Not many takers I’d guess.

[upthemaggies]

I just want to say UTM, thank you for sharing your points so well today in this discussion. I feel that this type of discourse should be encouraged more, and is very healthy.

You have obviously delved into this subject quite deeply, and I'd like to ask a question if you don't mind?

One of the sticks used to prod/beat the unvaccinated is that if you catch COVID then you are more likely to spread it. Have you found any evidence that supports or disproves this point?

I would think it stands to reason that the worse the symptoms, the more likely you are to spread a greater viral load and vice-versa.
As vaccinated also catch it, this applies to them. We're being told vaxxed have reduced symptoms, but if that's the case then this would logically be offset (in terms of spread) by the fact they are less likely to isolate or take precautions with mild symptoms, believing they are protected and able to protect others. The more ill you are the less choice you have to be out and about.

There's also the question in which group would the virus more rapidly learn (evolve) to evade vaccines? Logically it has to be in the vaccinated, because it's such a leaky vaccine.

So I think there would be a very strong case to be made that vaccinated are now spreading and driving vaccine resistant variants at least as much as unvaxxed, probably far more, particularly as there are now more vaccinated than unvaxxed, or at least in developed countries. It would make for terribly bad optics though to admit this was the case, so the unvaxxed - as was predicted some six months ago - will instead be blamed for the vaxxed not having the protection originally promised.