Small Boats etc solution

[Trickytreesreds]

Answering questions is never easy. My answer is yes and no.

No? The borders shouldn't be open to all and sundry. There has to be a process in place. Unfortunately, HMG has orchestrated a system whereby it's damned nigh impossible for these people to apply for asylum in the UK. Some of them still believe the streets are paved with gold. Others don't speak any of the EU languages but speak English and/or have friends/relatives in the UK. They really should be applying for asylum at their local UK Embassy/Consulate, if possible. Very often it's not. Failing that, HMG should have systems in place inside the EU where people can apply for asylum. They pass we bring them over. They fail, they go elsewhere. Unfortunately, all the failures will then try the small boat route.

Yes, there will, more than likely, always be people trying the small boat route. Those people, if one is humane, can't be left floating (or sinking) on the high seas. Those you need to bring in, if you are a civilised society. Those who manage to reach the shore, take them in. They should be put up in very basic accommodation like old, disused army barracks etc. Asylum requests should be, as TTR says, be dealt with inside 2 weeks. I realise that such a term would mean employing many more Border Force staff. Those that get accepted stay. Those that don't get deported. The trouble there is that HMG has repatriation "contracts" with Albania, Albania and Albania along with Rwanda. Give failed asylum seekers a choice of where they wish to go. Their home country, Rwanda or a safe country in their home region. All of course dependent on their chosen country being prepared to take them in.

Our, natural, civilised and humane way of thinking makes us vulnerable to folk who refuse to make that choice, in which case it might be decided for them.

Personally, if I was in their position and wanted to come to the UK, I'd probably go the boat route and destroy my passport. The current rules and processes, or, to be more exact, the lack thereof, would dictate that to be my best option. Basically, I understand it. That does not say I condone it.

TTR, Poland? Really? They may be somewhat reticent to take in people from Africa/Asia, however, they are currently housing in excess of 5 million Ukrainians. They are doing their bit, IMO.

Apparently, Rwanda isn't scaring people from taking to the boats. They know it's a possibility but they are prepared to take the risk. Will that remain the case once half a dozen flights of deportees have taken place? Depends on how desperate they are...

Some very good point MA, I agree with most of them but need to pull you up on a couple

1. Any that make it by boat we should take in? Doesn't work, they will still be using that means and even sinking their own boat to force the issue. Safe in the knowlege that they get here, they're in. That is excatly what is going on now.
2. Poland, yes Poland. It point blank will not take blacks/Muslims in. It is very firm in its stance of we are a Christian country and have our own culture which we are protecting. PERHAPS THIS IS UNTERMENSCH?
Ukraines and Poland are like brothers. Ask any Pole or Ukranian that. I have one next door if you need to ask.
Also, those Ukranians do not intend to stay there. They want to go home.
A policy we should also be using more here. Not every refugee should be permanent.
Denmark, made that clear and even made them pay for their own keep on entry if they had money. You do realise that?
Poland defended its borders when Belarus tried to flood Europe, The army was deployed and even those who got through, were caught and thrown back.
They don't have a problem anymore.

[Trickytreesreds]

Not bad rA, under 3 pages of comments and you've turned it back to your favourite hobby horse of Br****. Somewhat narcissistic don't you think?

The EU are part of the problem. Their handling of the external borders is a shambles.
Even the so called Dublin agreement, that many shout about was a joke.
The only ones sent back, were those who already lodged a claim in another country.
In the last year of it, we sent back 209, yet recieved 1215.
So no, it doesn't solve the problem.

[Trickytreesreds]

Okay, there’s none so blind...as the saying goes.

The rest is just such unadulterated tripe that I’m not wasting my time replying to it...or quoting it.

So, you run away from what you sling at everyone else.
Show me your evidence of what I or Farage for example have said that justifys Untermensch

You can't and you know it.

[ramAnag]

So, you run away from what you sling at everyone else.
Show me your evidence of what I or Farage for example have said that justifys Untermensch

You can't and you know it.

Calm down and read the post...the phrase I used was ‘some sort of Untermensch’. The reaction of those I speak of today is reminiscent of the reaction in Germany in the 1930’s towards the groups I’ve mentioned...particularly migrants.
As just one example, think back to Farage’s totally misleading poster of refugees (Syrian if I remember correctly, so God knows what it had to do with the EU) and consider what it was meant to be representative of.
As a second...consider your own words...you wouldn’t allow in anyone who arrived on a boat or a lorry. Only those who are truly desperate would arrive here in such a way but you just want to wash your hands - and the UK’s - of all responsibility as if you’re referring to people who don’t matter...an ‘underclass’ if you prefer.
The whole question, as AF has proved if we didn’t know it already, is immeasurably complex but the rhetoric of those on the Right is both callous and unhelpful and, as Lineker was correct, imo, to point out, worryingly reminiscent of something that has gone before.

[MadAmster]

Some very good point MA, I agree with most of them but need to pull you up on a couple

1. Any that make it by boat we should take in? Doesn't work, they will still be using that means and even sinking their own boat to force the issue. Safe in the knowlege that they get here, they're in. That is excatly what is going on now.

2. Poland, yes Poland. It point blank will not take blacks/Muslims in. It is very firm in its stance of we are a Christian country and have our own culture which we are protecting. PERHAPS THIS IS UNTERMENSCH?
Ukraines and Poland are like brothers. Ask any Pole or Ukranian that. I have one next door if you need to ask.
Also, those Ukranians do not intend to stay there. They want to go home.
A policy we should also be using more here. Not every refugee should be permanent.
Denmark, made that clear and even made them pay for their own keep on entry if they had money. You do realise that?
Poland defended its borders when Belarus tried to flood Europe, The army was deployed and even those who got through, were caught and thrown back.
They don't have a problem anymore.

1. If you're going to quote me don't take it out of context. I said take them in but keep them in old disused army barracks and the like. Get any asylum sorted double time. Those that qualify we let in. The rest we deport. All explained in the post to which you replied but chose to ignore the bits that get in the way of your own narrative. Letting them in is humane. It is civilised. 2 traits I would like to think the UK still has. Get them processed quickly and then take the appropriate action, equally quickly. I'm OK with you not answering but I do object to your constant "muddying of the waters" when skirting questions. If you're not going to answer the question asked, just don't reply and we can draw our own conclusions.

2. Not arguing with you. All I did was point out they have 5M refugees already.

Neighbours? My next door neighbours on one side, the house is jointly owned by 2 businessmen. One Dutch, one Irish. They rent the house out to a Polish employment agency. At any one time there's between 4 and 8 Poles living there. There has been the odd Romanian and even a Russian woman at one point. My contact with the agency stamps hard on them if they step out of line. Before that they were unruly and noisy. However, they were a lot cleaner than the Portuguese family they put in at one time and far less noisy than the Irish kids in there. We've had this since the mid 90s. We don't qualify for a rate rebate...

[Andy_Faber]

Ok I’ll accept that some of us can’t focus on answering the question but here’s the next. Assuming I’m some far off time ‘we’ could agree on a basic list of the obvious returns, the obvious keeps and those in between, what is stopping ‘us’ from implementing and executing that in short order?

[swaledale]

I’m alluding to the fact that we/I’m trying things a different way, and working through the many differences we have bit by bit. It’s just an idea I had to try to reduce a return to the mudslinging of the past, including between you and I, and based on dispute resolution techniques I used to use and have used on me in industry. Looking at the three respondents above, rA was getting it and confirmed that there are limits even for a liberal like himself. Trickys found it more difficult to actually answer the exam question but he’s getting there. Then in you steam with yet another manifesto. So I’ll assume you have come to this late and I’ll ask you what I asked the other two:

‘do you think U.K. should just open the borders to all comers?’

To save you looking back, rA said no, Tricky said no amongst other things and for the record I say no.

To be fair we could have come at it from totally the other direction but we didn’t, we may do later

What’s your answer?

I was puzzled by your reference to rant, when I posted what I thought was a reasonable answer, but hey ho, still no clearer.

The open borders bit I actually thought I'd answered that by my answer, otherwise why would I suggest controls? I mean I thought we had the right solution under the EU, we weren't part of Schengen but there was free movement, with caveats.

I mean its a moot point, we don't have open borders.

[swaledale]

Ok I’ll accept that some of us can’t focus on answering the question but here’s the next. Assuming I’m some far off time ‘we’ could agree on a basic list of the obvious returns, the obvious keeps and those in between, what is stopping ‘us’ from implementing and executing that in short order?

Its not that, its that actually this a complex issue and breaking it down into simple "bite size" pieces doesn't work.

Short answer, nothing. We already do it. Obviously the fact we didn't renegotiate the return agreement we had when in the EU, has hampered things a little, but basically that's what Sunak is trying to do now, under the cover of the new legislation which is creating a smokescreen for the rabid proles. he knows full well that what is being proposed can't be implemented and will not in any case stop the boats.

Lets be clear, the current situation, which has only arisen since 2016, is down to mismanagement of the situation by the government. They need to act within the law, especially international law, resource the agencies that handle immigration properly and stop using it as a weapon to attempt to further their political ambitions. Its all doable.
I'm sure there is a list with the Home office, that enforcement are supposed to work to. Again these need to be legally enforceable and not conditions which certain people would like to be applied.

[Andy_Faber]

Short answer, nothing.

So Swale’s response is in. He doesn’t agree with open borders but wouldn’t do anything about controlling them. Mmmkay…

Anyone else?

[ramAnag]

Ok I’ll accept that some of us can’t focus on answering the question but here’s the next. Assuming I’m some far off time ‘we’ could agree on a basic list of the obvious returns, the obvious keeps and those in between, what is stopping ‘us’ from implementing and executing that in short order?

Tbf, Andy...you’ve pointed out how complex it is and only a fool would attempt to simplify it. You’re also, I feel, deliberately misunderstanding Swale.
You’re right of course...we could all come up with a list of those we don’t want...murderers, rapists, traffickers, fraudsters, those with convictions for violent crime, child abusers, drug dealers, Forest fans, bent politicians etc...but where does that actually get us? All it does is allow us to list our pet hates.
As for the ‘keeps’, and it’s beginning to feel a little like a schoolyard football ‘cherry picking’ event. It’d be good to have the most skilled of course, but by the time we’ve all had our pick of the ‘best’ and most able...what do we then do with the vulnerable ‘left overs’?

I’m honestly not trying to reintroduce Brexit into the argument but it does require joined up thought from all the EU countries, ourselves and others and we do need to come up with some sort of equation (and no...I don’t know how) to decide on a fair and equitable distribution of the skilled and the less skilled. Factors such as existing family connections would have to be another decider in any such equation I think.

As for those I’ve already identified as ‘undesirable’...it transcends merely having some lesser criminal conviction...but of those I specifically mentioned...tbh my compassion is exhausted by them and I couldn’t care less.

P.S. Before you chuck your toys out of the prom again Tricky, the Forest fans reference was a joke. They could stay...though they’d have to reside in Nottingham!