Small Boats etc solution

[ramAnag]

No one wins mature arguments with a meme

I agree it’s a hard ‘task’ but so far we’ve got reasonable concensus with a notable outlier, although I note that you find it difficult to put in writing those you WOULDN’T accept. At least I can pick out your points without trawling through manifestos

I haven’t suggested that it’s an argument winner...just ‘food for thought’.

I think I’ve been crystal clear what/who I would/wouldn’t accept. Please explain.

[Trickytreesreds]

1. If you're going to quote me don't take it out of context. I said take them in but keep them in old disused army barracks and the like. Get any asylum sorted double time. Those that qualify we let in. The rest we deport. All explained in the post to which you replied but chose to ignore the bits that get in the way of your own narrative. Letting them in is humane. It is civilised. 2 traits I would like to think the UK still has. Get them processed quickly and then take the appropriate action, equally quickly. I'm OK with you not answering but I do object to your constant "muddying of the waters" when skirting questions. If you're not going to answer the question asked, just don't reply and we can draw our own conclusions.

2. Not arguing with you. All I did was point out they have 5M refugees already.

Neighbours? My next door neighbours on one side, the house is jointly owned by 2 businessmen. One Dutch, one Irish. They rent the house out to a Polish employment agency. At any one time there's between 4 and 8 Poles living there. There has been the odd Romanian and even a Russian woman at one point. My contact with the agency stamps hard on them if they step out of line. Before that they were unruly and noisy. However, they were a lot cleaner than the Portuguese family they put in at one time and far less noisy than the Irish kids in there. We've had this since the mid 90s. We don't qualify for a rate rebate...

No, I don't think you understood, Push aside the emotion of its humane. Whilst you leave that door open, they'll keep launching themselves into boats. This not only puts their own lives at risk, but the folks who have to go and get them. The whole idea of this , is to close down this route being run by criminals. If they know/think they can get in that way and a chance to fool the system they will. It's human nature.

[Trickytreesreds]

Calm down and read the post...the phrase I used was ‘some sort of Untermensch’. The reaction of those I speak of today is reminiscent of the reaction in Germany in the 1930’s towards the groups I’ve mentioned...particularly migrants.
As just one example, think back to Farage’s totally misleading poster of refugees (Syrian if I remember correctly, so God knows what it had to do with the EU) and consider what it was meant to be representative of.
As a second...consider your own words...you wouldn’t allow in anyone who arrived on a boat or a lorry. Only those who are truly desperate would arrive here in such a way but you just want to wash your hands - and the UK’s - of all responsibility as if you’re referring to people who don’t matter...an ‘underclass’ if you prefer.
The whole question, as AF has proved if we didn’t know it already, is immeasurably complex but the rhetoric of those on the Right is both callous and unhelpful and, as Lineker was correct, imo, to point out, worryingly reminiscent of something that has gone before.

Really? wow.
1. You introduced UNTERMENSCH to imply that those of us objecting to this mode of migration, as seeing them as inferior human beings. No one has said no such thing. The speak you you are relating to, came from a regime that believed exactly that.
So what gives you the right to use it?

2. My own words- Truly desperate?
as to pay gangsters thousands of pounds. After passing through many many safe countries. 90% MALE most 18-35. Yearh right.
Desperate implies the women/children/infirm . They have queue jumped and made the possibility of helping the really needy mmuch harder.
You say you don't want open borders, but that is exactly what you are implementing.


I'm still waiting for your wonder answer to this. I've given ideas, you may not agree with them. But they are a start. At the moment you seem to be like a floundering Labour MP, howling at cruel Suella, but offering nothing.

[Trickytreesreds]

Its not that, its that actually this a complex issue and breaking it down into simple "bite size" pieces doesn't work.

Short answer, nothing. We already do it. Obviously the fact we didn't renegotiate the return agreement we had when in the EU, has hampered things a little, but basically that's what Sunak is trying to do now, under the cover of the new legislation which is creating a smokescreen for the rabid proles. he knows full well that what is being proposed can't be implemented and will not in any case stop the boats.

Lets be clear, the current situation, which has only arisen since 2016, is down to mismanagement of the situation by the government. They need to act within the law, especially international law, resource the agencies that handle immigration properly and stop using it as a weapon to attempt to further their political ambitions. Its all doable.
I'm sure there is a list with the Home office, that enforcement are supposed to work to. Again these need to be legally enforceable and not conditions which certain people would like to be applied.

Eh? We never had a return agreement, you cannot be serious ?

[Trickytreesreds]

Tbf, Andy...you’ve pointed out how complex it is and only a fool would attempt to simplify it. You’re also, I feel, deliberately misunderstanding Swale.
You’re right of course...we could all come up with a list of those we don’t want...murderers, rapists, traffickers, fraudsters, those with convictions for violent crime, child abusers, drug dealers, Forest fans, bent politicians etc...but where does that actually get us? All it does is allow us to list our pet hates.
As for the ‘keeps’, and it’s beginning to feel a little like a schoolyard football ‘cherry picking’ event. It’d be good to have the most skilled of course, but by the time we’ve all had our pick of the ‘best’ and most able...what do we then do with the vulnerable ‘left overs’?

I’m honestly not trying to reintroduce Brexit into the argument but it does require joined up thought from all the EU countries, ourselves and others and we do need to come up with some sort of equation (and no...I don’t know how) to decide on a fair and equitable distribution of the skilled and the less skilled. Factors such as existing family connections would have to be another decider in any such equation I think.

As for those I’ve already identified as ‘undesirable’...it transcends merely having some lesser criminal conviction...but of those I specifically mentioned...tbh my compassion is exhausted by them and I couldn’t care less.

P.S. Before you chuck your toys out of the prom again Tricky, the Forest fans reference was a joke. They could stay...though they’d have to reside in Nottingham!

I wasn't chucking my toys out at all. I can tell the difference with a joke.
You are correct in that it requires EU help. Though doesn't mean youhave to be an EU member, as they have no control there either.
I actually believe the EU doesn't care or want to stop it.

[ramAnag]

Really? wow.
1. You introduced UNTERMENSCH to imply that those of us objecting to this mode of migration, as seeing them as inferior human beings. No one has said no such thing. The speak you you are relating to, came from a regime that believed exactly that.
So what gives you the right to use it?

2. My own words- Truly desperate?
as to pay gangsters thousands of pounds. After passing through many many safe countries. 90% MALE most 18-35. Yearh right.
Desperate implies the women/children/infirm . They have queue jumped and made the possibility of helping the really needy mmuch harder.
You say you don't want open borders, but that is exactly what you are implementing.


I'm still waiting for your wonder answer to this. I've given ideas, you may not agree with them. But they are a start. At the moment you seem to be like a floundering Labour MP, howling at cruel Suella, but offering nothing.

1. I didn’t introduce ‘Untermensch’ in relation to a ‘mode of migration’ at all. I introduced it in relation to the concept people like you hold of those who find themselves in such circumstances and wondered where you’d draw the line. You still haven’t answered my point about Farage’s infamous ‘Breaking Point’ poster from 2016.

2. ‘Desperate implies the women/children/infirm’. No it doesn’t.
You are ‘implementing open borders’. Of course I’m not.

‘Floundering’ and ‘howling’? Lol.

[Trickytreesreds]

Simplified. It has to stop.
That may require breaking international law, but that happens all the time, I have already mentioned Hungary/Poland doing it.
Of course Australia did it as well.

The back log is killing us.
I'd call a halt immediately. The French will howl, but back they go. They werent in danger and could hang on a bit longer. I'd even start paperwork over there now. The traffickers would be fuming.

In that time, the priority would be sorting out the mess of this back log. Once cleared, you can sift through the paper work gathered.

[Trickytreesreds]

1. I didn’t introduce ‘Untermensch’ in relation to a ‘mode of migration’ at all. I introduced it in relation to the concept people like you hold of those who find themselves in such circumstances and wondered where you’d draw the line. You still haven’t answered my point about Farage’s infamous ‘Breaking Point’ poster from 2016.

2. ‘Desperate implies the women/children/infirm’. No it doesn’t.
You are ‘implementing open borders’. Of course I’m not.

‘Floundering’ and ‘howling’? Lol.

Yes you did. You introduced it, but produced not one shred of evidence of anyone referring to these migrants as inferior humans.

Desperate is when you can't do anything to help yourself., or very little. Paying for travel and transport hopping, refusing help elesewhere, is not desperate.

Farages poster of that line was not wrong at all. It was taken exactly as it was. The Syrian refugees and all the band wagon jumpers, mixed in with them. Even the Syrians were complaining. If I remember right, it said, coming our way soon.
Many didn't like the tone, but the last 2 years it most certainly applies.

Your arguments are full of holes. No answers and it always leads back to the same thing, with you. Woe over Brexit and I hate the Tories, where anyone having a go, brightens my day.

Still waiting for your no open borders ideas.

[Geoff Parkstone]

God I've had dental appointments more fun than this. Let's add some levity. How would you feel rA about a potential asylum seeker who was pro Brexit?

[swaledale]

Simplified. It has to stop.
That may require breaking international law, but that happens all the time, I have already mentioned Hungary/Poland doing it.
Of course Australia did it as well.

The back log is killing us.
I'd call a halt immediately. The French will howl, but back they go. They werent in danger and could hang on a bit longer. I'd even start paperwork over there now. The traffickers would be fuming.

In that time, the priority would be sorting out the mess of this back log. Once cleared, you can sift through the paper work gathered.

So we can't absorb 45,000 a year? I mean over 500,000 leave every year, so seems we can.

Yes I agree the people smugglers and the small boats have to stop - but you haven't explained why the boats only became significant after Brexit?

Mm breaking international aw is the way to go? really? Even you can see how that would demolish UK's credibility in calling to account the Russians Chinas etc. of this world? Its not required anyway.

How do you propose to send them back to France? I'm genuinely interested in how that would be accomplished without French agreement?

Yes starting the paperwork over there is a good idea, it used to happen pre Brexit, but guess what the UK government didn't renegotiate the agreement post Brexit or take up the offer by the French to set up a processing centre in France.

So rather than get all riled up by government and their tame media propaganda, why not take the time to chill a little and consider how the situation could very simply be resolved! The government could stop the boats very simply, but they don't because their only strategy is to use this as a smokescreen to hide the absolute horlicks they have made of Brexit and everything else.

If there was a safe route to claim asylum, processing of claims within 28 days and agreements to return those who do not qualify, the boast would stop pronto and we'd have control over our borders. SIMPLES!