O/T:- Palestine / Israel

[slack_pie]

BFP, at such a sensitive time, I do not think it is ok for Palestinian's, (how do you know they are innocent) to wave flags, (prevocatively) on the streets of our capital or anywhere else in this country. There is a fine line to draw on free speech, but whatever the Tories said about it, you would disagree. Just to clarify, I am not Tory supporter.

What about the Israeli flag? That's been plastered all over European landmarks the last few days. Meanwhile, the Israeli army are bombing civilians and denying normal people access to the very basics they need to survive. Remember, there's no way for Palestinians to leave Gaza at this point. At what point does this become more than a retaliation?

I'm not taking a side here, just saying that it works both ways. Both Hamas and the Israeli government have the blood of innocent civilians on their hands.

[Magpies1959]

I was just replying to BFP, regarding the flag waving. I think it has gone past retaliation, and the Iraelis are looking equally as bad as the Palestinians. What we can do without, is demonstrations from supporters of either side on the streets of this country. It is nowt to do with free speech, it is just provocation, it might be what goes off in Israel and Palestine, but we should not tolerate it here.

[Newish Pie]

I was just replying to BFP, regarding the flag waving. I think it has gone past retaliation, and the Iraelis are looking equally as bad as the Palestinians. What we can do without, is demonstrations from supporters of either side on the streets of this country. It is nowt to do with free speech, it is just provocation, it might be what goes off in Israel and Palestine, but we should not tolerate it here.

Freedom of assembly and the right to protest have everything to do with free speech.

The right to free speech doesn't overrule every other consideration (you can't shout "fire" in a crowded theatre etc), and you may think that considerations for public safety outweighs the right to free speech on this occasion. That's a legitimate view, but not one I share as things stand. If that's your view, that's fine, I respectfully disagree.

But saying that the right to protest and the right of assembly have nothing to do with free speech is not a sensible argument.

[TSANHO]

I don’t get it. I have a fairly decent understanding of the conflict, and of the unrest in the Middle East before even WW2. Adam Curtis made a brilliant documentary on it, Bitter Lake I think it was called.

What I don’t is understand is why Hamas, totally out of the blue, would do this….and how such complex and deep rooted intelligence agencies would have no prior knowledge of these attacks.

What I don’t understand most of all is what Hamas, who aren’t run by brain dead idiots (whatever we think of their actions) think they would achieve out of these attacks and what response it would instigate out of Israel and their western allies.

There is no way on earth Palestine/Hamas would stand even a glimmer of a chance against the might of Israel/US, so why knowingly instigate such a dangerous and desperate attack?

Doesn’t make sense to me.

[i961pie]

Also by killing European and American citizens alienates Hamas even more.

[Magpies1959]

Like I say Newish Pie, it was just pure provocation not free speech. Driving down city streets waving Palestinian from cars, is hardly freedom of assembly.

[Newish Pie]

Like I say Newish Pie, it was just pure provocation not free speech. Driving down city streets waving Palestinian from cars, is hardly freedom of assembly.

It sounds as if you're referring to a one specific video clip that's attracted your ire, which I've not seen, so can't really comment on. Presumably legislation around either the highway code/driving safely might be relevant, as might be rules about behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace. Don't see any good argument for a blanket ban on one particular flag in response, for the reasons Slack mentions above.

Flying or waving a flag has everything to do with freedom of expression (whether it constitutes speech is, I agree, more debatable, but I'm not sure that matters) and doing it with others is freedom of assembly.

And... I could be wrong (not seen this clip), but isn't this fairly standard away football fan behaviour?

[BigFatPie]

BFP, at such a sensitive time, I do not think it is ok for Palestinian's, (how do you know they are innocent) to wave flags, (prevocatively) on the streets of our capital or anywhere else in this country. There is a fine line to draw on free speech, but whatever the Tories said about it, you would disagree. Just to clarify, I am not Tory supporter.

Your ability to misunderstand/misrepresent and selectively ignore other people’s posts is unrivalled on this message board. It’s nothing to do with Tory/Labour I criticised a Labour politician literally a few posts ago.

The point that demagogues like Braverman and her ilk pretend not to know is that free speech/expression is a much more nuanced issue than they make out. Your struggles with people waving flags is a good illustration.

[Magpies1959]

Newish Pie, I have never heard away fans either waving, or not waving flags from windows, shouting they were going to rape mothers and sisters of the home fans, and celebrating the death of babies, but I guess it is not that bad really.

[SmiffyPie]

And... I could be wrong (not seen this clip), but isn't this fairly standard away football fan behaviour?

An extremely insensitive (stupid) comparison.