OT - what the hell is going on!

[Trickytreesreds]

When I was at school if I got in trouble I got in trouble again at home. How often now do schools dare discipline bad behaviour for fear of parents going mad at them for daring to discipline their precious kids?

I don't know, maybe not as much as you hear but I know of a few anecdotal stories where parents have flown into a rage because their kids come home telling them they have been *******ed.

It starts at home certainly, maybe parents of minors committing offences should also be charged?

Who knows sith, but something has gone very wrong. Morals have gone and non discipline has followed.
Is this a result of the ban on corporal punishment? I do not have the answer to that, but what i do remember, is the fear of consequences when caught. As it stands, there is none.

[Trickytreesreds]

Oh c’mon Tricky, when was the last time your views were impacted upon by any religion? You come across as just about the least charitable and ‘Christian’ person I’ve encountered.

‘National pride has been eroded away’, well yes I can agree with that…by dishonest and corrupt politicians, an utterly deceitful Prime Minister, the behaviour of football fans at a showcase European final, our dreadful (compared with elsewhere) roads, the behaviour of certain Brits abroad, the collapse of the NHS, the state of our public buildings, racist rioters etc, and if young people are ‘embarrassed by our history, so have less respect’, so be it. There is much to be proud of about being British but unfortunately the truth is there are things we have done wrong and should be ashamed of and if people are more aware and more questioning nowadays, how is that a bad thing?

It also has little, if anything, to do with the tragedies MA was speaking of.

Think you've skipped a chapter.
It is now common place through the education system and the media, to tell our young how bad and terrible British history is. We must feel guilt for our crimes if our ancestors.
Add into that politicians, pouring scorn over the Union flag and god forbid the flag of st George.
They are told from a young age age now, that white privalege is a problem, balck people are persecuted and you must not feel patiotic as that makes you a Nazi.
Perhaps embracing that we are all British and should build up this nation should be the cream again, should be the topic?
Being proud to be British and strong together, should be embraced not scorned upon. Have a word with Thornberry and Khan, for a start .

I'll tell you this much. The Falklands was only 42 years ago, with passions running high of national togetherness.
I can't see that happening now, politicians would scorn upon it as colonialistic and imperial oppression.

[Andy_Faber]

I'll chuck just one issue into the mix which I've mentioned a number of times before and have direct experience of - lack of a male role model in the household.

In my daughters' earlier years I (and Mrs F) have come across numerous young lads (mainly) who we've helped 'steer' through life for a while due to no guidance being available from a male senior, usually because there wasn't one, usually because there had never been one.

I won't overdramatise, there was no steering away from a life of crime or suchlike, we just helped most of these kids take a step up from drifters to having a bit of a purpose (and in a couple of cases a lot of a purpose) and only by setting examples for them and nattering to them when they were round our house for one reason or another. Hoorah for the goody goody entitled white people you might say but I still come across a couple of these fellahs at a distance, they make it clear I/we made a difference and I'm proud I helped

BUT I can't see what the answer is to this one, and regretably rA TTR is right on this one, Christian/British values were no children out of wedlock (aka these days a settled relationship) and certain elements of our society have lost the plot (or, I am told, never had it) on this

[ramAnag]

Think you've skipped a chapter.
It is now common place through the education system and the media, to tell our young how bad and terrible British history is. We must feel guilt for our crimes if our ancestors.
Add into that politicians, pouring scorn over the Union flag and god forbid the flag of st George.
They are told from a young age age now, that white privalege is a problem, balck people are persecuted and you must not feel patiotic as that makes you a Nazi.
Perhaps embracing that we are all British and should build up this nation should be the cream again, should be the topic?
Being proud to be British and strong together, should be embraced not scorned upon. Have a word with Thornberry and Khan, for a start .

I'll tell you this much. The Falklands was only 42 years ago, with passions running high of national togetherness.
I can't see that happening now, politicians would scorn upon it as colonialistic and imperial oppression.

Absolute tripe! I can’t remember a time when the Union flag has been more prevalent. It’s almost compulsory these days for any politician to have one in the background and IF there’s shame attached to the flag of St.George we all know where it’s come from…English football hooligans and the National Front.

Nobody tells our young how ‘bad and terrible British history is’…but where things like the slave trade and Windrush are concerned the truth will - as you said earlier - out.

Years ago you accused me of being anti British before eventually apologising. Many countries have things they are, or should be, ashamed of. We are no exception.

[ramAnag]

I'll chuck just one issue into the mix which I've mentioned a number of times before and have direct experience of - lack of a male role model in the household.

In my daughters' earlier years I (and Mrs F) have come across numerous young lads (mainly) who we've helped 'steer' through life for a while due to no guidance being available from a male senior, usually because there wasn't one, usually because there had never been one.

I won't overdramatise, there was no steering away from a life of crime or suchlike, we just helped most of these kids take a step up from drifters to having a bit of a purpose (and in a couple of cases a lot of a purpose) and only by setting examples for them and nattering to them when they were round our house for one reason or another. Hoorah for the goody goody entitled white people you might say but I still come across a couple of these fellahs at a distance, they make it clear I/we made a difference and I'm proud I helped

BUT I can't see what the answer is to this one, and regretably rA TTR is right on this one, Christian/British values were no children out of wedlock (aka these days a settled relationship) and certain elements of our society have lost the plot (or, I am told, never had it) on this

I take your initial point but I’d prefer no male role model to a bad male role model, Andy and I’m glad you feel you can give yourself a pat on the back…but believe me…you’re not alone on that one.

As for ‘Christian/British’ values equalling ‘no children out of wedlock’, I think that’s reactionary rubbish, but you’re right, certain elements of our society have lost or never had the ‘plot’…it’s all too easy to create a child…requires a whole different skill set and level of maturity to be a decent and competent parent.

[Andy_Faber]

I take your initial point but I’d prefer no male role model to a bad male role model, Andy and I’m glad you feel you can give yourself a pat on the back…but believe me…you’re not alone on that one.

As for ‘Christian/British’ values equalling ‘no children out of wedlock’, I think that’s reactionary rubbish, but you’re right, certain elements of our society have lost or never had the ‘plot’…it’s all too easy to create a child…requires a whole different skill set and level of maturity to be a decent and competent parent.

I'm aware I'm not alone and its not a 'calling', I'm no heroic Youth Club leader type, its just a 'habit', picked up from my dad I guess.

I know you have a bit of a bee in your bonnet about religion and Britishness so I won't respond other than to say that 'reactionary' means opposing progress and if abandoning the idea of a stable family unit is progress you're welcome to your view and I won't share it

[MadAmster]

We don't do morning assemblies anymore, it seems. No surprise to me. School is supposed to be secular so pushing one religion isn't on. Especially when many pupils are Muslim, Sikh, Hindu or atheists/agnostics not interested in religion at all. Forcing a non-Christian to recite the Lord's Prayer isn't going to do anything to help the current situation.

GP said "castrate the parents". Too late for those kids mentioned in the opening post.

TTR mentioned Pride in our history. Today's kids most likely don't even know of the supposed "glories" of the past like Dunkirk, Waterloo, El Alamein etc. They certainly don't know anything about the black pages in our history, the raping and pillaging our way to an Empire with a weapon in one hand and a bible in the other. Unfortunately, most think that the Great in Britain was coined because of the glories of Empire when it was actually coined by the Romans who came here from Bretagne and, because the island they now found themselves on was larger in size than the French province they'd just left, they called it Bretagne Major. That's how the Great got put into Britain. I'm with TTR on believing kids should know more of our history, however, although I may be wrong, I think he only means the "Great" bits, I think that ALL of our history should be taught, warts and all.

[ramAnag]

I'm aware I'm not alone and its not a 'calling', I'm no heroic Youth Club leader type, its just a 'habit', picked up from my dad I guess.

I know you have a bit of a bee in your bonnet about religion and Britishness so I won't respond other than to say that 'reactionary' means opposing progress and if abandoning the idea of a stable family unit is progress you're welcome to your view and I won't share it

All too typical Faber response, ‘I won’t respond’…and then immediately do the precise opposite and respond with something you know to be contentious.

You know perfectly well that, both personally and processionally. As I’ve said before, I place enormous value on the concept of a ‘stable family unit’. There is, imo, nothing more important than having loving, caring and competent parents.
However a certificate of ‘wedlock’ is not a prerequisite for such a state of affairs and I can provide plenty of examples, again both personally and professionally, where unmarried or foster/adoptive/replacement parents (usually fathers) have done a damned site better job than their often inadequate or cruel but natural counterparts.

Not sure either what ‘religion and Britishness’ have to do with it unless you’re seriously intimating that British churchgoers have the monopoly where ‘stable family units’ are concerned.

[Trickytreesreds]

I'm aware I'm not alone and its not a 'calling', I'm no heroic Youth Club leader type, its just a 'habit', picked up from my dad I guess.

I know you have a bit of a bee in your bonnet about religion and Britishness so I won't respond other than to say that 'reactionary' means opposing progress and if abandoning the idea of a stable family unit is progress you're welcome to your view and I won't share it

RA can rebuke Christian values as much as he likes.
My childhood, was as you say in a stable , but deprived working class upbringing. I went to a church of England school and learned the wrongs and rights of life, the ten commandments and the togetherness of national pride.

Parents dished out the first line of discipline and schools took up the mantle afterwards. before he goes off on one, this isn't a dig at RA's career. But surely even he must have seen a decline in behaviour over his career? I don't know when you stopped teaching RA, but the current school behaviour levels are way worse.
Teachers say they are under increasing physical and verbal attack from pupils. A recent BBC survey of 9,000 teachers found that one in five had been struck by a pupil this year. It has prompted many to question their career choice.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...herts-68917020

We were taught to respect your elders/ police/ teachers/ medical as people who were seen as role models.
That lack of respect is now prevalent across the board in society and it is connected to national pride as well.

I notice RA you didn't explain Khans and Thornberrys ridicule, or lack of passion to fly either flag? Yet free palestine flags and LGBT flags can wave all they want?
This is indoctrination and is influencing society behaviour.

I still feel the root seed of all this is lack of discipline, from the home, to the schools, to the criminal system.

That actually sets the pattern in reverse as well. When an older brother gets away with adult crime, his/her younger siblings see this and mimic it in childhood. Kids with knives? I wonder who they get idea off?
Its no coincidence either, that single mothers lose control of kids, without a role model in the family. Getting worse as well

In 2022, there were over 2.94 million single parent families in the United Kingdom, with the majority being lone-mother families, accounting for 84% of the total. Source: statista.com

[ramAnag]

RA can rebuke Christian values as much as he likes.
My childhood, was as you say in a stable , but deprived working class upbringing. I went to a church of England school and learned the wrongs and rights of life, the ten commandments and the togetherness of national pride.

Parents dished out the first line of discipline and schools took up the mantle afterwards. before he goes off on one, this isn't a dig at RA's career. But surely even he must have seen a decline in behaviour over his career? I don't know when you stopped teaching RA, but the current school behaviour levels are way worse.
Teachers say they are under increasing physical and verbal attack from pupils. A recent BBC survey of 9,000 teachers found that one in five had been struck by a pupil this year. It has prompted many to question their career choice.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...herts-68917020

We were taught to respect your elders/ police/ teachers/ medical as people who were seen as role models.
That lack of respect is now prevalent across the board in society and it is connected to national pride as well.

I notice RA you didn't explain Khans and Thornberrys ridicule, or lack of passion to fly either flag? Yet free palestine flags and LGBT flags can wave all they want?
This is indoctrination and is influencing society behaviour.

I still feel the root seed of all this is lack of discipline, from the home, to the schools, to the criminal system.

That actually sets the pattern in reverse as well. When an older brother gets away with adult crime, his/her younger siblings see this and mimic it in childhood. Kids with knives? I wonder who they get idea off?
Its no coincidence either, that single mothers lose control of kids, without a role model in the family. Getting worse as well

In 2022, there were over 2.94 million single parent families in the United Kingdom, with the majority being lone-mother families, accounting for 84% of the total. Source: statista.com

I’m not ‘rebuking Christian values’ at all…indeed I think the example set by Jesus Christ is one we would all do well to follow…especially you.

Tbh I don’t know what you’re talking about when you speak of ‘Khan and Thornberry’s ridicule’. My fault probably but I do suspect that, in general, ALL flags cause more trouble than they’re worth.

As regards schools…I don’t know exactly how old you are Tricky, but I too went to a CofE school and I’m not aware that it taught me the rights and wrongs in life anymore than any other school…it just meant that the local vicar put in a weekly appearance and assemblies had a religious content.

Curiously, talking of knife crime, those primary school years which ended in 1964, also included the Teddy Boy/Mods and Rockers years. Can’t think of a time when knife crime was more prevalent than then, which is in no way an attempt to belittle the current crisis, just an observation.

Of course I accept that the situation has got worse for teachers although I don’t accept that the MAJORITY of children today are any more problematic than they’ve ever been. Maybe there is a correlation between the removal of corporal punishment and the discipline problems we face today, but then I remember, as an eight(!) year old, being strapped on the hand for nothing more than talking in class, being caned numerous times on the backside for comparatively trivial ‘crimes’ and even sent home for having hair that was too long.

It’s complicated but I don’t want to go back to those days of teacher brutality and unfortunately, a bit like the police, the nature of the job means that, amongst the well intentioned, both jobs attract more than their fair share of bullies too.

P.S. If you want a portrait/reminder of education from half a century ago watch ‘Kes’. Brilliant and entertaining imo…all the time in the world for Mr. Farthing (Colin Welland), none at all for Mr. Sugden (the excellent Brian Glover).