English identity?

[Andy_Faber]

Bit pedantic, AF, but, to clarify…when I see the English or British flag raised in celebration/acknowledgement of sporting/Olympic victory I feel some degree of pride. When I see it carried by those who support the NF/EDL etc or associated with football related violence I feel only anger, resentment and, depending on circumstances, some small degree of fear.

To add a third category (which I doubt you’ll like) when I see those - often elderly people - enthusiastically waving their mini Union Jacks at a variety of, usually Royal, occasions I can’t help thinking they look a bit bonkers and hope they get home safely.

My sisters a royal ‘groupie’ and marvels at the strange demographic - old couples, mothers and daughters, ‘loose women’ groups (her words), gay men, ‘the lost and not yet found’ (lots of them), a few hisnds and wives but not many, almost zero hetero men. She’s positive royal groupidome is good for the mental health of those indulging

[Trickytreesreds]

So…what is ‘being English’, how is it ‘ridiculed’ and ‘watered down’ and what bits of it are you actually proud of?

You clearly share Jenrick’s stance but seem no better at explaining what ‘being English’ actually means.

Don't assume anything about my stance regarding Jendrick.

When we talk about watering down for a start, lets take national Identity. England is the only home nation, not having a parliament representing Englands interests. Give that some thought.

First let me quote you fromYOUGOV surveys, so you don't just start yapping about my opinion.

He is an Englishman
With English nationality becoming more prominent, it begs the question: who is English? Now the final installment in a series of YouGov surveys on nationality can reveal what makes a person English, according to the English themselves.

Englishness is clearly a birthright, with the majority believing that where or to whom a person is born defines whether a person is English or not.

At 81%, the most commonly held source of English nationality is being born in England. Almost as popular, at 80%, is having two English parents - this drops to 54% for having one English parent.

The majority of English people will also consider someone who grew up in England to be and Englishman.

I think by that, we look back on our history through the ages, probably since the last time this country was invaded in 1066 and since then has held its own against all opponants.
England became the dominant home nation and eventually was the driving force behind Union, that put GB on the world map.
As for being English, I think of fair play, honour, patriotism for the homeland, free speech, and sense of pride of being the worlds best for a while.
We queue quietly and put up with hassle for a long time, before exploding. (something our european neighbours don't do,)

Yet now days, when you get into the level of national pride, you get slapped down. You can show it, if you are crowing for the European Union, but not on home soil. They counter protest a national rally, infiltrate events like last night of the proms, find ways to ridicule your flag. Even though the European Union do all these things, have flag, national anthem and are not even a country.
But the vitorol is mainly aimed at England. The Jocks/ Welsh / Irish are praised for showing their national pride.

Politicians push this, as it helps them at election time. The demographics of England are now such, that to push a proud English agenda, wouldn't sit well with the multi faihs now here. Ironically waving Palestine flags is considered nice and jolly, or facing each other off in Leicester with India and Pakistan flags a good sign.

So I have a question for you. I know you don't like bring up your career, but you probably still have a better insight than I do.
When I went through school, we learned about Cavemen/ onto romans/ then vikings/ then Normans/ Then the rise of Naval power with Drakes navy and Nelson, putting England onto the world power stage. Victorian rule saw the rise of the Empire and how England/ home nations were feared and admired. Shakespear/ Byon/ Brontes and many other wonderful works. Then the World wars, when we fought for the good of freedom against oppression.

How much of this is still taught? I read stories about how we should be celebrating Black history and African teaching should be focussed on?
We should be ashamed of our Empire days and recant our sins? England is blamed for the slave trade, yet actually wasn't the main instigator and no one mentions the roll the country put in ending it.

Where does it end and how much are we losing?

[ramAnag]

When we talk about watering down for a start, lets take national Identity. England is the only home nation, not having a parliament representing Englands interests. Give that some thought.

Englishness is clearly a birthright, with the majority believing that where or to whom a person is born defines whether a person is English or not.

At 81%, the most commonly held source of English nationality is being born in England. Almost as popular, at 80%, is having two English parents - this drops to 54% for having one English parent.

As for being English, I think of fair play, honour, patriotism for the homeland, free speech, and sense of pride of being the worlds best for a while.
We queue quietly and put up with hassle for a long time, before exploding. (something our european neighbours don't do,)

Yet now days, when you get into the level of national pride, you get slapped down. You can show it, if you are crowing for the European Union, but not on home soil. They counter protest a national rally, infiltrate events like last night of the proms, find ways to ridicule your flag. Even though the European Union do all these things, have flag, national anthem and are not even a country.
But the vitorol is mainly aimed at England. The Jocks/ Welsh / Irish are praised for showing their national pride.

So I have a question for you. I know you don't like bring up your career, but you probably still have a better insight than I do.
When I went through school, we learned about Cavemen/ onto romans/ then vikings/ then Normans/ Then the rise of Naval power with Drakes navy and Nelson, putting England onto the world power stage. Victorian rule saw the rise of the Empire and how England/ home nations were feared and admired. Shakespear/ Byon/ Brontes and many other wonderful works. Then the World wars, when we fought for the good of freedom against oppression.

How much of this is still taught? I read stories about how we should be celebrating Black history and African teaching should be focussed on?
We should be ashamed of our Empire days and recant our sins? England is blamed for the slave trade, yet actually wasn't the main instigator and no one mentions the roll the country put in ending it.

Where does it end and how much are we losing?

Okay…times too short but here goes. Our Parliament is more concerned with England than anywhere else. It is clearly dominated by English MP’s and the only reason the Scots and the Welsh have their own Parliaments is to be able concentrate on matters specific to those particular countries.

No problem with the ‘birthright’/accident of birth stuff and the next one largely makes sense…glad to see you’re now accepting that, by that definition, many Muslims are as English as you or I.

I don’t know why you think our ‘European neighbours’ don’t share these traits. They absolutely do.

I must be mistaken at the number of English/Union flags I see at international football matches and other gatherings, not to mention the curious singing of ‘Rule Brittania’ by those self same ‘Ingerland’ fans.

I couldn’t care less if you bring up my career, as long as it’s relevant and not you trying to be insulting, but you’re wrong again.
It sounds as if I had much the same history syllabus as you, but times have changed Tricky. We are a little less ‘hearts of oak’ and more ‘warts and all’ these days. ‘Black history’ wasn’t taught because, certainly when I was at school, black people were looked down on, weren’t allowed to use the same public transport or visit the same beaches as whites in the USA and South Africa. History now includes such topics. We learn from history and the truth about the slave trade and apartheid are part of that process. As for Shakespeare and Co. Yes of course they’re still taught as is the comparatively modern history of the rise of Hitler and the two World Wars.

So…about this ‘English Identity then’ We seem no nearer to explaining it.

[MadAmster]

No English Parliament, TTR? I would suggest that having 543 of the 650 Westminster MPs representing English constituencies that the English do very well out of it and they wouldn't pass a Law, helpful to Scotland or Wales or Northern Ireland that was detrimental to England. A Law helpful to England but detrimental to one or more of the other 3 would get passed, no problem.

Much of the electricity used in England is generated in Scotland and transported to England. How come it's more costly to use leccy in Scotland than in England? Both the cost per Kwh and the standing charges are higher in Scotland... the very place where it's generated.

The UK has 6 oil refineries. 1 in Scotland. They've just decide to shut 1 down. Yes, you guessed it, the one based in Scotland. Strangely, most of the oil is pumped from wells in Scottish waters.

Scottish Whisky. Something like 80% of Whisky exports leave through English air and sea ports and count towards England's export total rather than Scotland's where it was distilled.

The Empire, Built with a weapon in one hand and a bible in the other. Refuse the religion and you get the weapon used against you. India was very rich when we took it over. It was poor when they regained independence. I wonder how that happened?

[Ramshank72]

No English Parliament, TTR? I would suggest that having 543 of the 650 Westminster MPs representing English constituencies that the English do very well out of it and they wouldn't pass a Law, helpful to Scotland or Wales or Northern Ireland that was detrimental to England. A Law helpful to England but detrimental to one or more of the other 3 would get passed, no problem.

Much of the electricity used in England is generated in Scotland and transported to England. How come it's more costly to use leccy in Scotland than in England? Both the cost per Kwh and the standing charges are higher in Scotland... the very place where it's generated.

The UK has 6 oil refineries. 1 in Scotland. They've just decide to shut 1 down. Yes, you guessed it, the one based in Scotland. Strangely, most of the oil is pumped from wells in Scottish waters.

Scottish Whisky. Something like 80% of Whisky exports leave through English air and sea ports and count towards England's export total rather than Scotland's where it was distilled.

The Empire, Built with a weapon in one hand and a bible in the other. Refuse the religion and you get the weapon used against you. India was very rich when we took it over. It was poor when they regained independence. I wonder how that happened?

You could say the same about America, the British colonies are largely wealthy, the former European colonies in the South, are 3rd world, corrupt, and drug riddled. There were some serious atrocities committed there by the Europeans, mass murders and pillaging.
It's easy to think that only the Brits were the bad guys.

[Geoff Parkstone]

It was the Scotch colonialists that asset stripped India maybe?

[MadAmster]

You could say the same about America, the British colonies are largely wealthy, the former European colonies in the South, are 3rd world, corrupt, and drug riddled. There were some serious atrocities committed there by the Europeans, mass murders and pillaging.
It's easy to think that only the Brits were the bad guys.

Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch were each as bad in their "sphere of colonial influence", indeed. However I didn't comment on that as we're currently discussing the UK Parliament using a comment by TTR (post #22) as the basis.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Belgians were the worst

[MadAmster]

Belgians were the worst

Nah, Germans were the wurst and tales of French wrongdoings are legion

[Andy_Faber]

You could say the same about America, the British colonies are largely wealthy, the former European colonies in the South, are 3rd world, corrupt, and drug riddled. There were some serious atrocities committed there by the Europeans, mass murders and pillaging.
It's easy to think that only the Brits were the bad guys.

I think you’ve hit on something that makes us English. The tendency to beat ourselves up or allow others to beat us up about something that transpires to be less our responsibility than thought or not solely our responsibility