Is it justice or scapegoat for the 96?

[beano2]

Yes there were drunken fans at that game but what happened inside is what caused it. How many thousands of other games have people arrived under the influence and yet no catastrophe?
So people blaming drunken fans for this disaster is just not right. If stewards and police had done their jobs this would never have happened.

[triz]

Policemen lie and think they are above the law.Not all,but most. Hillsborough is a high profile example of their day in day out actions.

I remember arguing with an old timer on here years ago whose brother was a policeman at hillsborough. We argued and argued. He cast blame on the scousers and defended the coppers,and he assured me the truth will eventually come out. Years later it is doing. Although not quite how he expected it to it seems, but entirely how i did.

[clough08]

And another thing: the previous year with the same teams, there was almost a disaster. What prevented it was that the police set up a checkpoint at the entrance to the Leppings Lane area and only allowed people through with tickets and at a reasonable rate. Even so, there was still some crushing at the turnstiles.

Why did they not do the same a year later? I assume because the new guy, Dukenfield, hadn't been briefed or hadn't bothered to find out.

And we still don't know who took the two CCTV films that had gone missing by Sunday morning, though we could probably hazard a guess.

[AngryRam]

[quote="W8996"]Ignorance.

As a Liverpool fan, from Liverpool, engaged to a Derby fan so I have a bit of a soft spot for the Rams.

I'm dismayed by the responses so far. I'm a long time lurker so I know the rubbish spouted by the OP but I'm disappointed so many fans still hold so many myths about Hillsborough to be true and show an utter lack of compassion.

I want to address some of the myths surrounding the disaster but even putting that aside for the moment how can none of you really understand the need for justice?

Imagine that your teenage son or daughter is desperate to attend their first away match. You're a bit worried generally but he pesters and begs, he's so excited, he's followed his team at home all season and you did promise them they could watch the reds if he did well in their exams. You say yes to the utter delight of your son unaware that just a few years earlier there was were several crushes with injuries at the venue and that Hillsboro

[Beardyram]

Where does the buck stop though. If the police are found guilty of lying and fabricating evidence then what. Will the families then move onto trying to get justice from the FA for their part in the tragedy when they issued the smaller end to potentially the biggest number of fans, or for allowing a match to be played at a venue which had seen very similar, incidents only a couple of years before. Or the fact that the FA allowed such a match to be played at a ground without a valid safety certificate. The FA are as much to blame as anyone.

What next? A civil action against Sheff Weds for their ground being unsafe? Im sure that if someone died as a result of an accident at a work place that didn't have the correct safety certificate then the company would be in breach of health and safety law and face prosecution.

What happened was an accident with numerous factors to blame, not just the police although it does seem some evidence was tampered with. However holding the police

[Mickleover_Ram]

Good post and very emotive, i didnt realise all the juniors were there attending there first away game after there exams or that no alcohol had been drunk by any fan who were all perfectly well behaved. so thank you for your info, I take it you were a first hand witness?

I think you are right and we shouldnt buy Japannese or German goods, look what they did too.

In reality isnt it fair to say it was an ABSOLUTE tragedy. MY HEART CRIES for the victims and there families. However there was mistakes on both sides there was good officals and bad there as well as behaved fans and badly behaved fans. Why cant lessons be learned together and not this constant THEM and US, we are better and more deserving than you attitude which seems to be the norm with anything scouse.

We should be coming together as a whole community as others who suffer tragedy have.

[AngryRam]

I agree an absolute tragedy and hindsight is a wonderful thing. Through the 70's and 80's turning up without a ticket and trying to bunk in was common practice.. Should the gate have been opened? I am sure that at least was done with the best of intentions.
The ground layout was not good.. Again all hindsight, what **** ever thought fencing supporters in was a good thing, I will never know. So yes the fans would have been complicit to an extent.. What we should never forgive was what SYP did on the day and after it.. They should be made accountable.

Just a note on yesterday, the more I see and hear Brendan Rogers, the more I respect him as a professional and as a man.

[Fletch_11]

When there used to be terracing at the Baseball Ground I was always there early with my family to make sure I could get a good spot to see. Pop side at the Normanton End - at the end of the safety gate where the concrete was raised. I was a kid and was taken early so that I could see. The Sheffield Wednesday quarter final in the early 90s was probably the busiest I ever remember it. When Nicholson scored I got lifted off my feet and felt helpless as I got swept away from my family. Fortunately it was fine but I always remember that when I think about Hillsborough.

Undoubtedly there were fans who had drunk too much and arrived late - but that is something that still happens at football. At Barnsley I was with my 6 year old son 6 seats away from an idiot who lit a smoke flare when Chris Martin scored. For all I knew it could have been a distress flare and set fire to people's clothes causing panic and injury. All clubs even ours has some fans who don't care about others.

Some of the vi

[roger_ramjet]

You are right Fletch - it still goes on to a lesser degree nowadays and what it was like in the 80's was significantly worse. I know I used to go to games more often back then.

What gets me about the Hillsborough thing is the total non acceptance of any blame by the fans. No doubt that security and policing was inadequate and central to the tragedy, but to claim total innocence on the fans' part is to delude themselves.

Example: fans claim the police did not set up a process of pre screening of tickets before the turnstiles. If there were no ticketless fans trying to get in, why would this therefore make any difference and contribute to the problem?

Fact is, everyone who went to football matches in that era knows exactly what the atmosphere and so on would be like before a big cup semi final. Lots of alcohol, people without tickets hoping to get in, and a sense of malevolence that has thankfully reduced some by now.

So why would it have been any different on that day? Its not

[SuperDerbySuperRams]

Hillsborough is still a death trap, the Leppings Lane end is a joke.

My opinion is that the police did not enforce what had worked the previous year, and did not direct and advise supporters to head towards the emptier pens. Had this been done, I'd hope the 96 would live today.

I believe we'd just win away at United that day, I was there, the overwhelming joy soon turned to horror, football changed that day.