Brexit

[alfinyalcabo]

I am totally stunned.
I don't know if you realise that - to the rest of the world - this looks on a par with Donald Trump being selected as a Presidential candidate.
And it's no good saying, "The rest of the world doesn't understand."
That's just not true because fear of excessive immigration is rife everywhere - even in New Zealand, where the Chinese are the currently favoured scapegoats.
This decision is just so short-sighted. The immigration problem isn't going to disappear overnight anyway, and what about the lasting damage to other parts of the economy?
In my lifetime, this whine of "They're taking all our jobs" has come up time and again - despite the fact that the incomers usually do the shi**iest jobs for the shi**iest wages!
Have people not taken into account at all the political side of it? After a thousand years of European wars (mainly caused by petty, chest-thumping nationalism), we finally manage to create a union that makes such wars impossible, only to dump it in favour of good old HMS England, bravely taking on the world in the spirit of Queen Victoria and Churchill.
In any case, whatever your views, how anyone would want to be on the same side as Boris, Farage and Gove beats me!
Pathetic.

I voted not to join the European in 1972 and took it on the Chin when we did,now it's the turn of the remain camp to take it on the chin..Dontworry Aucks ,things have a way of sorting themselves out.. We are now able to make our own destiny in our country,without being told what to do by other countries..

[champs95]

I was in the IN camp. But felt all in all, they did a terrible job in campaigning, in comparison the scare tactics used by Brexit. That's what shifted the vote. Auks, your points are valid, but you'd have to live in the country to see the way the points where put across to the general, voting public. You would then have to a clear example than what your hear from in media reports, which is ultimately how your viewing this. It's affects you in a different way. Your not seeing what's been coming through people's letter boxes etc etc for the last few months leading up to this decision. And the leader, the voice of the people I listened to, wimped out and walked which says it all really.

But now the decision as been made its time to move on. I am unconvinced enough to see any real major changes once the dust settles. Once the scaremongering dies down, and the knee jerking, things will look different.
That's my opinion right or wrong anyway.

[Despair]

I was in the IN camp. But felt all in all, they did a terrible job in campaigning, in comparison the scare tactics used by Brexit. That's what shifted the vote. Auks, your points are valid, but you'd have to live in the country to see the way the points where put across to the general, voting public. You would then have to a clear example than what your hear from in media reports, which is ultimately how your viewing this. It's affects you in a different way. Your not seeing what's been coming through people's letter boxes etc etc for the last few months leading up to this decision. And the leader, the voice of the people I listened to, wimped out and walked which says it all really.

But now the decision as been made its time to move on. I am unconvinced enough to see any real major changes once the dust settles. Once the scaremongering dies down, and the knee jerking, things will look different.
That's my opinion right or wrong anyway.

I'm much the same Champs, (even though Alf reads my 'concerns' as being an 'in' voter!).
The public battles from both sides were in my opinion shameful, and did not really address the key issues. Not only that but also, in many cases, totally confused the electorate. By that I mean in both directions.
As you say, Aucks maybe should also consider what virtually all the other nations (not their current leaders) are saying especially; Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Holland. Not all of these can surely all be naïve.

The EU needs major reform, the EU needs to be reined in with regards its federal aspirations, the EU needs to be accountable to someone, somewhere. All of those are very good reasons to walk away, but just maybe staying on and forcing these changes in collaboration with those listed above, (plus 90% of the other members) would have been the smarter tack. That's exactly what is dismaying those others.
But we have arrived at a 'enough is enough' moment, delivered by a democratic vote and for better or worse that's where we're at.
I'm not predicting doom and gloom, as quite simply no one knows. Just as staying on would be wine and roses - no one knows.
I just feel the ones who are going to pay most as if and when it gets 'bumpy' will be the usual suspects As its always been.

[AucklandRover]

I was in the IN camp. But felt all in all, they did a terrible job in campaigning, in comparison the scare tactics used by Brexit. That's what shifted the vote. Auks, your points are valid, but you'd have to live in the country to see the way the points where put across to the general, voting public. You would then have to a clear example than what your hear from in media reports, which is ultimately how your viewing this. It's affects you in a different way. Your not seeing what's been coming through people's letter boxes etc etc for the last few months leading up to this decision. And the leader, the voice of the people I listened to, wimped out and walked which says it all really.

But now the decision as been made its time to move on. I am unconvinced enough to see any real major changes once the dust settles. Once the scaremongering dies down, and the knee jerking, things will look different.
That's my opinion right or wrong anyway.

Well, there are the unseens. Take Scotland away - and that looks a certainty - and you may well be left with the fact of a permanent Tory government, based on the way the English constituencies voted at the last election.
What is amazing is the unlikely alliance that won the vote. It appears to be a combination of the gentry/upper middle-classes in the Shires who believe England should still rule the world, and the English working class who blame the current situation on poor people from other countries rather than on a series of right-wing governments whose failed free-market, neo-liberal economic policies brought the world crashing into the worst recession in 90 years in the first place!
Still, those Johnny Foreigners with funny languages won't be bothering us in the future. England can return to its glorious destiny - led, presumably, by Boris Johnson.
Perhaps when I wake up, Johnson and Trump will turn out to have been creatures of nightmare only.

[champs95]

I don't even believe that it was a case of the common man feeling it was about England 'ruling the world', quite the contrary. It was more what is happening up to now, isn't exactly working out well. Immigration is an issue that got manipulated, for example. Brutally.
Mainly because here, it's not the news that's distorting your view, it's happening in the streets your living on. Again, to reiterate, I am mainly in the 'IN' camp. That was how my vote went. But the reaction of both sides today has been appalling IMO.

In every part of our history there's been a Boris Johnson. This clown incumbent has been echoed throughout history and dealt with in the correct manner eventually. This will be no different.
'Things are going to get alot worse' are the words uttered by the losing Party, in all of my adult life. We've been out before, it's time to see what happens again. The whole of the EU needs a reform. And the level headed ones are already looking at us, and asking for their own referendums. Right or wrong, I think it was about time things changed. They where/are not working, not for us anyway.

[AucklandRover]

I don't even believe that it was a case of the common man feeling it was about England 'ruling the world', quite the contrary. It was more what is happening up to now, isn't exactly working out well. Immigration is an issue that got manipulated, for example. Brutally.
Mainly because here, it's not the news that's distorting your view, it's happening in the streets your living on. Again, to reiterate, I am mainly in the 'IN' camp. That was how my vote went. But the reaction of both sides today has been appalling IMO.

In every part of our history there's been a Boris Johnson. This clown incumbent has been echoed throughout history and dealt with in the correct manner eventually. This will be no different.
'Things are going to get alot worse' are the words uttered by the losing Party, in all of my adult life. We've been out before, it's time to see what happens again. The whole of the EU needs a reform. And the level headed ones are already looking at us, and asking for their own referendums. Right or wrong, I think it was about time things changed. They where/are not working, not for us anyway.

Champs - I didn't argue that the "common man" saw England ruling the world again. I was saying that is partly an explanation of the votes from the Hoorah Henrys in the Shires.
I accept that the working class vote was directed against the fact that no-one in Europe seemed to be listening.
My point is, though, that The Who were wrong when they said we "Won't Get Fooled Again". Bitterness has been successfully targeted at the "faceless bureaucracy" in Brussels when only last year, Britain re-elected - with an increased majority - a government that follows the same tired old "free-market" policies that have continued to widen the gaps between rich and poor, and which actually brought about the desperate economic depression that has gone on so long.
And who's to blame? Apparently, Bulgarian migrant workers!
And what has this vote made likely? Quite possibly, a permanent majority for a Tory government with an even more right-wing agenda than Cameron's! Do you think Farage and UKIP are going to quietly disappear? They'll want to be part of whatever happens next. And look what has already happened to the promise of an immediate boost to NHS funding.
As for Boris, he may be a clown, but he is a potentially dangerous one. A year ago, we were treating Trump's political aspirations as a joke!

[AucklandRover]

I voted not to join the European in 1972 and took it on the Chin when we did,now it's the turn of the remain camp to take it on the chin..Dontworry Aucks ,things have a way of sorting themselves out.. We are now able to make our own destiny in our country,without being told what to do by other countries..

Yes - I see that congratulations are pouring in from Fascist groups all across Europe. Great to have them on board.
I also notice that there have been record numbers of British Google searches since Thursday, asking "What is the EU?"
I thought all along many people were not clear what they were voting FOR; now it seems they were not even sure what they were voting AGAINST!