OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

I too would vote in favour of an independent Scotland but, not being Scotch, I do not get to vote on the issue. Now that is racist if anything is: why cannot I vote on separation between Scotland and England just because I am English. Its like giving the wife the right to divorce her husband, but not giving the husband the right to divorce his wife. Perhaps racist is the wrong word, but it has to be an "-ist" in one form or another, as it is a difference based on nationality.

So if there were to be a proper country wide referendum on schism between England and Scotland (and maybe Wales and Ulster too) any decision is surely racist as it is made on national grounds.

Bringing this back to the EU context therefore, even if a vote is made on a racist ground, does that make it any less valid or appropriate? I may not vote on that basis, others on here might not, and some may. But if they fall into the latter camp does that make their perspective invalid? Does that mean that they should be disenfranchised?

One of the great things about our democracy is that everyone is entitled to vote regardless of their reasoning. The way Swale speaks it almost looks as if he wants to be able to review and validate everyone's voting decisions - most specifically if they vote differently to him. I may not agree with the reasons others have to vote, but I will defend his or her right to vote that way nonetheless. To do otherwise is tyrannical, which seems to be where Swale is coming from.

This level of condescending political snobbery is as unacceptable as the racism Swale's targets are alleged to display

I know Swale has 'gone off on one' a bit Rog - even though I agree with most of what he's said - but is it really 'condescending political snobbery'? Surely in every other walk of life we take notice of (respect) those we believe 'qualified' to offer an opinion and ignore (disrespect) those we don't. To me it's the same with the referendum and why I believe the whole concept to be such a flawed excercise which actually begs the question...is it such a great thing about our democracy that 'everyone is entitled to vote regardless of their reasoning'? To an extent I'm playing 'devil's advocate' but why is everyone's vote equal when everyone's capacity for 'reasoning' obviously isn't and why do we have to respect the opinions of those - on any side - when there is obviously no reasoning, knowledge or insight involved?

[ramspride]

And you a ****ing ****. because I was not making any comment on those who expressed opinions on this thread, i was describing some morons who were on TV being interviewed who had voted for Brexit, I have not at any time said anything about the comments posted by those on this thread, but seeing as you clearly cannot understand plain english, i'm beginning to assume you belong in the ****ing ignorant camp!

Swaledale can't you see you are destroying your own arguments with a reply like that.

[ramspride]

I know Swale has 'gone off on one' a bit Rog - even though I agree with most of what he's said - but is it really 'condescending political snobbery'? Surely in every other walk of life we take notice of (respect) those we believe 'qualified' to offer an opinion and ignore (disrespect) those we don't. To me it's the same with the referendum and why I believe the whole concept to be such a flawed excercise which actually begs the question...is it such a great thing about our democracy that 'everyone is entitled to vote regardless of their reasoning'? To an extent I'm playing 'devil's advocate' but why is everyone's vote equal when everyone's capacity for 'reasoning' obviously isn't and why do we have to respect the opinions of those - on any side - when there is obviously no reasoning, knowledge or insight involved?

RamAnag your quote 'we take notice of (respect) those we believe 'qualified' to offer an opinion' is IMO a big problem and I'm sure that's why a lot of younger voters voted remain. They very often take note of their teachers at school and lectures at university because they believe they are qualified to opinions. Very often they are not. Many of them have never lived in real life but believe they are an authority on it. They instill on many of their students opinions that are not balanced. I have seen this from my own family and friends. Judgments should be made with an open mind after listening to both sides of an argument not preconceived by education. When I and probably you were young we left school in our mid *****, went to work and learn from the real world. Sadly now nearly everyone goes to 'uni' and does enter the real world till their mid twenties or later when their mind are set.

[macstheman]

A friend of mine trained as a teacher and enjoyed a very successful career. This was a second career having worked in an artisan environment. After 15 years of teaching he changed track and trained in a totally new environment but again in the education world. One of the reasons for him leaving the classroom environment was his fellow teachers. Pointing out that having spent 15 years or more in the classroom being taught they remained in the classroom as the lecturer. He felt that theirs was a totally limited appreciation of the real world which limited their ability to help youngster to prepare for that real world. In addition in his opinion their views on how society should be organised was equally limited often based on earlier influences without question. many were totally convinced that the rest of the world were devoid of the ability to apply logic or reasoning and only they knew what they were talking about.

[macstheman]

A friend of mine trained as a teacher and enjoyed a very successful career. This was a second career having worked in an artisan environment. After 15 years of teaching he changed track and trained in a totally new environment but again in the education world. One of the reasons for him leaving the classroom environment was his fellow teachers. Pointing out that having spent 15 years or more in the classroom being taught they remained in the classroom as the lecturer. He felt that theirs was a totally limited appreciation of the real world which limited their ability to help youngster to prepare for that real world. In addition in his opinion their views on how society should be organised was equally limited often based on earlier influences without question. Many were totally convinced that the rest of the world were devoid of the ability to apply logic or reasoning and only they knew what they were talking about. My experiences with my children did little to make me doubt the accuracy of his assessment!

[ramAnag]

RamAnag your quote 'we take notice of (respect) those we believe 'qualified' to offer an opinion' is IMO a big problem and I'm sure that's why a lot of younger voters voted remain. They very often take note of their teachers at school and lectures at university because they believe they are qualified to opinions. Very often they are not. Many of them have never lived in real life but believe they are an authority on it. They instill on many of their students opinions that are not balanced. I have seen this from my own family and friends. Judgments should be made with an open mind after listening to both sides of an argument not preconceived by education. When I and probably you were young we left school in our mid *****, went to work and learn from the real world. Sadly now nearly everyone goes to 'uni' and does enter the real world till their mid twenties or later when their mind are set.

Not sure why you believe teachers and lecturers haven't 'lived in real life' rp. They may not have lived the same life as you but that doesn't make it any less 'real'.
Perhaps 'qualified' was the wrong word but you know as well as I do that in any debate, from this forum's more usual concern with football and DCFC to the reasoning behind the decision on which way to vote in the referendum, there are views which have credibility and those which don't.
Since the referendum I have heard many reasons for voting 'Leave' from...'I wanted to get rid of all the darkies', 'Well I wanted that Mr. Farage to be in charge', to 'It's good because the NHS now gets all that European money'. Such views are, imo, too stupid to carry any credibility with me. I don't, in all honesty, respect the people who hold them and I do wonder about their fitness to actually vote. What I don't know is how you 'legislate' for the situation unless we go to the other extreme and decide that because we're going to view every vote as equal in a democracy then it becomes compulsory to vote.

[AngryRam]

Had an interesting evening last night.. Went to some friends for dinner and they have a daughter who has just graduated.. Her boyfriend was their as well, also a recent grad.
The conversation inevitably got around to Britex and I was gobsmacked at their attitude. It was all about the now and them, they had not even considered most of the issues.. I guess the flip side of Swaleys argument in essence. It was all about them, nothing else mattered.. Apparently they can now not move freely within in EU. When pointed out that yes they would still be able to one they had passed the initial point of entry, mush as they do today.. Gobsmacked.. They will never be able to work in the EU apparently... Again when pointed out that you may have to fill in a few extra forms there is no reason they could not work in the EU, they went quiet.. I employ people from all,over the world.. The simple criteria is are you good enough.
They simply could not get their head around the fact that Europe will change.. We have a veto.. Yes we do but for how much longer? Did they really think the EU could effectively function if each country had a veto.. Here today, gone tomorrow.
They seemed to want everything served to them on a silver spoon.. They can't buy houses.. I seem to remember 15/16% interests rates when I started buying. Each generation has its challenges, it seemed to me that this generation are simply not ready for them.. Generalisation I know but worrying just the same.
Quite simply they had not looked outside their little bubble and voted in that way.. Are these people any different from the so called ignorant simpletons who voted leave based on little knowledge. All I am saying is that there was ignorance on both sides.

[swaledale]

Swaledale can't you see you are destroying your own arguments with a reply like that.

I wasn't advancing any arguments, i was expressing my frustration at posters who don't read posts or the context in which they are made!

Yes Angry, the generalisation that people who go to university know **** al about the world is about as true as saying those who are 50 plus and never have know what their talking about ignorance on all sides is true. The younger generation do though ahve a more liberal attitude to nation states than the older generation and some of what they say is true it will make it more difficult to work or do business within europe those few forms become expensive time consuming paperwork for individuals and busineses alike.

I still have yet to hear a coherent argument as to why leaving the Eu is better than staying in - no doubt IF the economy crashes people will be explaining how this economic pain is worth it! Trouble is it will be those I described who were on TV celebrating the Brexit who will suffer most... but then why should I give a ****? I'm alright jack!

[roger_ramjet]

Agreed Angry... voting remain does not give any moral high ground of a "thought out vote" to those that voted this way.

The idea of a compulsory vote is an introguing one Mangara. I think it is the case in a handful of countries including Australia Brasil and a few EU countries. What is difficult to comprehend is how you enforce it? Do you imprison non voters? If so under current legislation they lose the right to vote! Ironic.

Do you fine people for not voting? Lets say £100 to make it a worthwhile disincentive. Would have raised about £ 1.4 billion. Introduce 2 or 3 referenda per year and it could be a nice little earner.

Is the right to refuse to vote as central to democracy as the right to vote? What about spoiled ballot papers - is that not voting? If so you need to remove secret voting to enforce penalties against the spoilers? That isnt going to happen (hopefully).

Whilst the idea has merits of reinforcing the election tesult, I dont see how it can be effective in practice, although obviously some nations have cracked it.

It is strange that in a country where the right to vote is such a hard earned thing, albeit not as hard earned as in other countries, at least 30% of those eligible to vote dont bother (and way more in local elections). The suffragettes must be rolling around in their graves.

If you dont vote you lose the right to complain about the outcome.

[swaledale]

Swaledale can't you see you are destroying your own arguments with a reply like that.

I wasn't advancing any arguments, i was expressing my frustration at posters who don't read posts or the context in which they are made!

Yes Angry, the generalisation that people who go to university know **** al about the world is about as true as saying those who are 50 plus and never have know what their talking about ignorance on all sides is true. The younger generation do though ahve a more liberal attitude to nation states than the older generation and some of what they say is true it will make it more difficult to work or do business within europe those few forms become expensive time consuming paperwork for individuals and busineses alike.

I still have yet to hear a coherent argument as to why leaving the Eu is better than staying in - no doubt IF the economy crashes people will be explaining how this economic pain is worth it! Trouble is it will be those I described who were on TV celebrating the Brexit who will suffer most... but then why should I give a ****? I'm alright jack!