OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[AngryRam]

Hold on Angry! You were the one labelling remain as the "safe" option, you can't argue it both ways! Well you can but its a contradiction and rather undermines the case your making.

I rather thought this country had been built on an empire and exploiting resources and people in other countries but maybe i misread history!

IMO theres a difference between a bold decision, that is one taken with a rational view of the facts and consequences and a risky one, where actually the consequences arent fully understood, even by the most intelligent of people, in fact where in the Brexit campaign were those positive effects set out beyond meaningless statements about "taking our country" back?

You also ignore the economic benefits we have had over the past 40 years whilst being in the EU, or did I miss the bit where membership brought us to economic ruin?

How are you so sure that our ability to VETO the bits of the Eu we didn't like is going to be diminished? Thats an assumption not a fact, it may happen, though it would be by the agreement of the democratically elected UK government not an edict of the EU.

Right let's address this once again for Swaley. I will try and use small words, so you can understand.

1. For Anag, yes I believe part of his reason for voting remain was that it was the safer option and he did not like risk. That was specific to Anag if that is where you are getting that from. Status Quo, let's not step outside into the unknown. Although stay in has as much risk for the reasons stated in probably 800 of the above posts.

2. Yes an empire built on exloiting resources of other countries and people.. Look at what that exploitation gave the world. Fact of life, we were strong and others were weaker. I have no problem with the empire.. Again cyclical and it was just our time.. Romans, Turks, Greeks and many others have all had a go. I could argue that is what the EU are doing at the moment, other country exploiting the resources and people of another country.. Only this time it is the little boys exploiting the bigger boys. Unfortunately for them, we as one of the bigger boys, have said no..

3. Bold decision. 'Rational view of the facts'. I doff my hat to you Swaley, you are obviously on a different level to anyone else.. I am amazed, everyone on here should stand and applaud you. You know facts about the FUTURE.. Can you share what the facts are regarding staying in for the next 20 years in the EU please? What did you not do this before? Can you also share lottery numbers please? You contradict yourself so much, it's starting to get funny now. 'Consequences aren't fully understood' ! Again do you know what the consequences are of staying in.

4. Economic benefits - I have never disputed that there have been some. I have said many times there were pros and cons on both sides but again you fail to read and understand the points people are making. I can only assume it is because you often post late in the day and you are not at you best intelligence wise. Again you miss the point here. You are assuming that the EU will remain as it is.. What about these facts you assume you know about the future of remaining. Again most on here have concerns over where the EU is going, not so much where it started. Again read the bloody posts.

5. Regarding the veto.. As Ram59 says it is hardly used. Of course I don't know for a fact that it will go anytime soon but let's look at the veto and its place within the EU. How, going forward, can countries having a veto work? Paralysis on major issues? Will they let that continue? Sooner or later it will start to get watered down otherwise how does the EU develop the way it is? The PM banging on that we can always veto Turkey coming in.. Really. Politics is a trade off. We get some relief on fishing rights as a sweetener for not using our veto. I simply don't trust whoever will be in power not to sell us down the river and not use it when they need to.

[swaledale]

And don't be silly and pull the 'Do you even know any Muslims' trick. I know loads and am friends with a couple. I also know loads of football fans who aren't psychopaths but I know they're out there, and I know loads of blokes in their fifties who aren't *****philes, but again I know they're out there - and agreeing with your last point, I know of loads of UK tourists who respect the ways of where they are, but I know there are British arseholes abroad.

t pull "the I've got friends who are muslims " trick, thats a standard response, if thats the case why would you make a broad sweeping statement like you did? Muslims are not one homogenous group of people anymore than white christian people are and alluding to them being intolerant or Islam being an intolerant religion is not a true statement.

[swaledale]

Right let's address this once again for Swaley. I will try and use small words, so you can understand.

1. For Anag, yes I believe part of his reason for voting remain was that it was the safer option and he did not like risk. That was specific to Anag if that is where you are getting that from. Status Quo, let's not step outside into the unknown. Although stay in has as much risk for the reasons stated in probably 800 of the above posts.

2. Yes an empire built on exloiting resources of other countries and people.. Look at what that exploitation gave the world. Fact of life, we were strong and others were weaker. I have no problem with the empire.. Again cyclical and it was just our time.. Romans, Turks, Greeks and many others have all had a go. I could argue that is what the EU are doing at the moment, other country exploiting the resources and people of another country.. Only this time it is the little boys exploiting the bigger boys. Unfortunately for them, we as one of the bigger boys, have said no..

3. Bold decision. 'Rational view of the facts'. I doff my hat to you Swaley, you are obviously on a different level to anyone else.. I am amazed, everyone on here should stand and applaud you. You know facts about the FUTURE.. Can you share what the facts are regarding staying in for the next 20 years in the EU please? What did you not do this before? Can you also share lottery numbers please? You contradict yourself so much, it's starting to get funny now. 'Consequences aren't fully understood' ! Again do you know what the consequences are of staying in.

4. Economic benefits - I have never disputed that there have been some. I have said many times there were pros and cons on both sides but again you fail to read and understand the points people are making. I can only assume it is because you often post late in the day and you are not at you best intelligence wise. Again you miss the point here. You are assuming that the EU will remain as it is.. What about these facts you assume you know about the future of remaining. Again most on here have concerns over where the EU is going, not so much where it started. Again read the bloody posts.

5. Regarding the veto.. As Ram59 says it is hardly used. Of course I don't know for a fact that it will go anytime soon but let's look at the veto and its place within the EU. How, going forward, can countries having a veto work? Paralysis on major issues? Will they let that continue? Sooner or later it will start to get watered down otherwise how does the EU develop the way it is? The PM banging on that we can always veto Turkey coming in.. Really. Politics is a trade off. We get some relief on fishing rights as a sweetener for not using our veto. I simply don't trust whoever will be in power not to sell us down the river and not use it when they need to.

OK Angry so its me and Anag and it seems anyone who points out the obvious flaws in your argument about leave that has low intelligence eh?

AS for contradictions, read your own posts, Anag as well as I have cut across the bull**** you have posted many times, and each time you wriggle away from what you said claiming a different interpretation, i can only assume that along with many others you don't actually have a much of clue as to why you voted leave and as the actual benefits of that decision are further and further away from being realised, you and the other leavers distance yourselves from that decision by increasingly vague references to Muslims (WTF the Refugee problem has to do with the Uk's membership of the EU?).

Where have I aid I assume the EU wil stay as it is? I specifically mentioned it will change.

We have sucessfully used the VETO several times and in my post I gave specific examples, I could give more but casting pearls before swine is kinda of boring.

The concerns over where the EU are going are part nationalism, part speculation and assumption, I did not claim it was perfect but equally some of the scare stories are patently untrue or at best assumptions about what might happen, so your distrust of the EU is pure speculation.

Yes the consequences of staying in can be calculated, nobody can predict the future of course, but then nothing thats been said shows that leave has anything to back their view other than some kind of gut instinct!

My point about the empire was a retort to you saying the UK was built on bold decisions.

AS for the FACTs, at least a decision to vote Remain has facts as we know them, what IS as to what might, possibly, we hope, could be etc. Nowhere did I say I knew the future, but I prefer a version of life that can at least be quantified to one without any coherent plan or understanding what our position will be outside the EU will be, jeez read that sentence you posted again the irony of you calling my intelligence into question!

OK some facts as we know them - though i did post a number eons ago which I noticed was not responded to, a familiar action by a lot of leave voters, because they cannot be refuted.

For remain - not in the Euro, retain border controls, have veto over changes or political integration, freedom of movement access to free healthcare in the Eu, right of work or residence in the EU, stronger economy, cheaper cost of living higher tax take, cooperation with Eu police forces over crime, part of a union of countries which has maintained a stable and peaceful europe, beneficial in cooperation against security threats wherever they may be.

Now you come back with all the benefits of leaving the EU which are FACTS as against gut reactions, nationalistic feelings or unproven future prophecy's of doom!

[ramAnag]

Was there not another referendum after the original in vote? Not sure how many years ago that was..
I'm in my 50s and still have a future I like to think... Pros and cons with letting even younger people vote... Be careful what you wish for on that one.

I'm just a few years older - and wiser - Angry. Pretty sure the last one was June 1975...41 years ago...hard to believe. There was an overwhelming majority too if I remember rightly.
Wasn't suggesting that you - or I for that matter - don't have a future and I know some young people let themselves down but frankly so do people from all generations. I do find it odd though that...when, as you say, it might be so long till we have another say on this particular issue...people in their eighties and nineties are considered to have a divine right to vote, even though some may not know what day it is let alone what they're voting for and yet seventeen year olds, many of whom will be quite 'worldly', are deprived of a vote on an issue which is likely to impact upon the vast majority of their working lives.

[ramAnag]

I am taking a trip abroad next week which involves five flights. The check-in process will take me two and a half hours longer than it did in 2000 (my observation) and the flights will cost me 4% more (fact, I'll find where I saw that and post it when I find it). And you can be sure that waste of time and money wasn't due to anything Seikhs or buddists did.

I have a musician friend who lived, and made a good living, playing psychobilly to manic audiences in Germany. He lived in a sleepy town called Neiderau. He, his wife and daughters recently moved back to Oxford because in the last year the streets of his part of town have become a virtual no-go zone for anyone wearing a skirt or a short-sleeved blouse, and damned dangerous after dark. This started when the town was allocated some immigrants - not radicals, just people who (my friend says) clearly have an ethos which is intolerant of the ways of others, and (an absolute no-no for me) consider females to be commodities

I do a lot of recruitment interviewing where I work, and I've been asked by my HR not to ask candidates (many of whom, in my profession, are of 'subcontinent' origin) about what their interests are out of work, because a Muslim candidate has complained that those of other faiths are mentioning 'going out for drinks with mates' to differentiate themselves from abstaining Muslims

These aren't substantiation, just anecdotes, and I'm no racist....

Can't argue with the check in process taking longer Andy but do you really blame Muslims for that? Sure, everything changed, flight wise, after Sept. 2001, but ordinary Muslims have to put up with it just as much as you or I, possibly more so, and to my way of thinking it was the result of the behaviour of extremists. I wouldn't blame ordinary Muslims for increased flight security any more than I'd blame ordinary Catholics for any reluctance to go shopping in Birmingham, Manchester or Warrington during the seventies and eighties.

Your story of your musician friend in Germany is a sad one. I don't applaud or support immigrants moving into areas and imposing their beliefs on others however again it is not something that is particular to Muslims. The English 'ex-pats' (why are they never called immigrants?) often have much the same impact on parts of Spain and, as we're being anecdotal, a friend of mine recently told me about a French community he had come across where the village had been taken over to such an extent by the English that the local cafe now had a sign in the window saying 'English Only'.

As regards your reference to the consideration of 'females as commodities'...two points. Have you not heard of the *** tourism injury in Thailand and South East Asia? I don't think there is a better example of primarily Northern European/White American males using 'females as commodities' anywhere in the world and believe me, such people do not leave their views abroad when they return home.

I repeat...I do think your account of life in Neiderau is a sad one and personally I deplore people imposing their intolerances and prejudices on others, but I do think your interpretation is peculiarly 'one eyed' on this occasion - for you - and is far from being a fair reflection on the 'impact of Muslims' upon society.

[AngryRam]

OK Angry so its me and Anag and it seems anyone who points out the obvious flaws in your argument about leave that has low intelligence eh?

AS for contradictions, read your own posts, Anag as well as I have cut across the bull**** you have posted many times, and each time you wriggle away from what you said claiming a different interpretation, i can only assume that along with many others you don't actually have a much of clue as to why you voted leave and as the actual benefits of that decision are further and further away from being realised, you and the other leavers distance yourselves from that decision by increasingly vague references to Muslims (WTF the Refugee problem has to do with the Uk's membership of the EU?).

Where have I aid I assume the EU wil stay as it is? I specifically mentioned it will change.

We have sucessfully used the VETO several times and in my post I gave specific examples, I could give more but casting pearls before swine is kinda of boring.

The concerns over where the EU are going are part nationalism, part speculation and assumption, I did not claim it was perfect but equally some of the scare stories are patently untrue or at best assumptions about what might happen, so your distrust of the EU is pure speculation.

Yes the consequences of staying in can be calculated, nobody can predict the future of course, but then nothing thats been said shows that leave has anything to back their view other than some kind of gut instinct!

My point about the empire was a retort to you saying the UK was built on bold decisions.

AS for the FACTs, at least a decision to vote Remain has facts as we know them, what IS as to what might, possibly, we hope, could be etc. Nowhere did I say I knew the future, but I prefer a version of life that can at least be quantified to one without any coherent plan or understanding what our position will be outside the EU will be, jeez read that sentence you posted again the irony of you calling my intelligence into question!

OK some facts as we know them - though i did post a number eons ago which I noticed was not responded to, a familiar action by a lot of leave voters, because they cannot be refuted.

For remain - not in the Euro, retain border controls, have veto over changes or political integration, freedom of movement access to free healthcare in the Eu, right of work or residence in the EU, stronger economy, cheaper cost of living higher tax take, cooperation with Eu police forces over crime, part of a union of countries which has maintained a stable and peaceful europe, beneficial in cooperation against security threats wherever they may be.

Now you come back with all the benefits of leaving the EU which are FACTS as against gut reactions, nationalistic feelings or unproven future prophecy's of doom!

I despair.. I really do.. Maybe sometime in the future you will come back to this thread and review it, hold your head in your hands, redden a little and then kick the cat. I dunno wtf you are on about anymore.
I feel I have been consistent in my views on the exit vote. I don't believe I have contractdicted myself but I will let others judge, is this just another Swaley read what you want to read bollx. In fact I hope someone does if I have been all over the place. If I have, I will happily post an apology. Yourself, Anag and now (to an extent) Baalocks are pretty much In aminority of 3ish. My frustration is that two of you just don't seem to read what we post.... The wall is up and it ain't coming down. Perhaps this thread is coming to an end and had run its course.. I have no more to add really, I cannot keep saying the same ****ing thing over and over again.

[roger_ramjet]

So Swale, in amongst your pro EU facts I find the following:

"stronger economy, cheaper cost of living higher tax take"

I am unsure that you know what a fact is, but all of those 3 are your opinion. Unprovable.

Also since when has higher tax take been an advantage?? Personally I like lower tax.

As for access to EU healthcare this is very much a double edged sword - we surrender access to our overstretched and underfunded NHS to health tourism as quid pro quo.

I now anticipate another mile long ramble rehashing the same old same old that has sustained this thread's evolution toward 1000 😅😚

[AngryRam]

I'm just a few years older - and wiser - Angry. Pretty sure the last one was June 1975...41 years ago...hard to believe. There was an overwhelming majority too if I remember rightly.
Wasn't suggesting that you - or I for that matter - don't have a future and I know some young people let themselves down but frankly so do people from all generations. I do find it odd though that...when, as you say, it might be so long till we have another say on this particular issue...people in their eighties and nineties are considered to have a divine right to vote, even though some may not know what day it is let alone what they're voting for and yet seventeen year olds, many of whom will be quite 'worldly', are deprived of a vote on an issue which is likely to impact upon the vast majority of their working lives.

That's a very rocky road to go down, even suggesting that we select who can vote and who can't. I don't disagree that some 17 year old are not capable of voting. Look hard enough and you might find a few 10 year olds. There has to be a start point somewhere, if they reduce that to 16, I won't have a massive issue.. Doubt many will use it but that goes throughout the age bands. As for a 70/80 year old, they have earns the right to have a say. I would have massive issues if the vote was taken away from senior citizens just because they might die soon. That really is dangerous ground.

[AngryRam]

Can't argue with the check in process taking longer Andy but do you really blame Muslims for that? Sure, everything changed, flight wise, after Sept. 2001, but ordinary Muslims have to put up with it just as much as you or I, possibly more so, and to my way of thinking it was the result of the behaviour of extremists. I wouldn't blame ordinary Muslims for increased flight security any more than I'd blame ordinary Catholics for any reluctance to go shopping in Birmingham, Manchester or Warrington during the seventies and eighties.

Your story of your musician friend in Germany is a sad one. I don't applaud or support immigrants moving into areas and imposing their beliefs on others however again it is not something that is particular to Muslims. The English 'ex-pats' (why are they never called immigrants?) often have much the same impact on parts of Spain and, as we're being anecdotal, a friend of mine recently told me about a French community he had come across where the village had been taken over to such an extent by the English that the local cafe now had a sign in the window saying 'English Only'.

As regards your reference to the consideration of 'females as commodities'...two points. Have you not heard of the *** tourism injury in Thailand and South East Asia? I don't think there is a better example of primarily Northern European/White American males using 'females as commodities' anywhere in the world and believe me, such people do not leave their views abroad when they return home.

I repeat...I do think your account of life in Neiderau is a sad one and personally I deplore people imposing their intolerances and prejudices on others, but I do think your interpretation is peculiarly 'one eyed' on this occasion - for you - and is far from being a fair reflection on the 'impact of Muslims' upon society.

Just as a point of order, air travel changed in 89 after Lockerbie. We were world leaders in aviation security, the yanks ignored us and payed the price. Since then Europe has tried its best to cock up what we have in place in the forlorn hope that counties like Poland can meet our criteria. Europe wide standard was the holy grail.. Never happened, never will. We still impose more stringent measures but that is a continual battle to keep those.
Strangely, only the Irish meet our level of competence, not the French or Germans.

[roger_ramjet]

As regards your reference to the consideration of 'females as commodities'...two points. Have you not heard of the *** tourism injury in Thailand and South East Asia? I don't think there is a better example of primarily Northern European/White American males using 'females as commodities' anywhere in the world and believe me, such people do not leave their views abroad when they return home.

I think the primary *** tourists in those areas are from Japan and Korea rather than Western Europe or America. Not saying that the latter are innocent but the former have organised plane loads of *** tourists flying in for weekends for one thing only.